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Troll Needs catchup  discussions

2020/09/25 05:42, Dawnborn:   
Talking with Jahara about things to make playing troll more fun/interesting/worthwhile or just for the hell of it and he suggested a conversation here for feedback.

While armor mending mobs and shops are still out of the picture for trolls, other than an unlimited supply of fresh wobbit, what would people want for trolls?

2020/09/25 06:58, Slampen: 
A chance of sweeping attack when hitting smaller targets...can reduce OB as trade off..

Introduce change in move delay since trolls are big, heavy and runs fast...When spamming in one direction, delay decreases to simulate higher movespeed....
But they have trouble stopping so to change direction the player need to brake with hitting move in other direction...
When running into a dead end all the decreased delay are applied...

2020/09/25 10:17, Boent:edited 1x   
Speaking for myself I don't think the concept of sundeath makes sense anymore as it is (and hasn't for a long time). In the past I think it did, when people didn't know how to play as well and you didn't have so many high level max-set pukes running around. Then trolls were actually feared. These days I think its different and a lot of people know what options they can use to go 1v1 with a troll.

So, I would change sundeath. Change it to be the same as a mob death or even a dt death. Just make it so they can't walk around in the sun, that way they can still be overkilled and free xp. This is good for pk because when pukes know a troll is somewhere they know he is stuck there and a lot of pk ends up happening as a result.

2020/09/25 11:27, Roadkill: 
Trolls need some way to counter the fact that every puke these days is wearing 99% absorb with armour spell on top, and half of them are sanced. And all of them have defence far outdistancing the troll ob.

So since I guess no sundeath is still a noidea, then give trolls something to make up for the ridiculous overpower they face? Like being eff vs metal, or make sanc less effective against trolls?

Or a shop selling charred staves? Or a reasonably easy quest to make them?

2020/09/25 11:40, Carl: 
The problem with troll's has always been the lack of mobility. The current meta of MUME becoming larger and people are becoming more mobile makes Trolls harder to find fights and easier for people to avoid fights.

Currently, Troll's only have one chance to find a fight before they're spotted and then people avoid them like the plague.

3 ideas.

Revamp the 'look around' command which is currently only used for finding Saruman campfires.

Make it so that troll's can smell in a small radius so that they can find/avoid people and have better chances of remaining unseen and then fight people at the appropriate time.

I'm biased so only Trolls get to smell. Maybe finally use the the cook west of Grider by putting specific meats into the pot so that you can smell the cooking pot and know what smells are what. One smell per troll! And your nose gets confused if you smell too many things in too short a time.

If you're forcing Troll's to wait in ambush during the day AFTER they're spotted, make it easier for them to surprise a group. Have a way for them to make tracks decay faster.

A command that can be enabled/disabled and have stupid large move delay that increases with group size that makes tracks decay faster. Say 3 min decay?

This would allow people to find them during the day so that they know where Troll's are hiding, but also allow Troll's to at least TRY and trap someone after spotted.

This can be tweaked to ensure that Troll's don't want to have large groups and have a larger chance of getting fights in smaller numbers.

Have Perception & Awareness affect the chances of fleeing into sun rooms. You can throw in Intelligence at a smaller input.

High Per+Aware would make it very unlikely for a troll to flee into a sun room as they know its certain death.

Low Per+Aware and a Troll will be blind and not know its a sun room.

Also you can have panic flag affect these rates and have the first flee a 100% chance of NOT fleeing into sun rooms.

Warlord status could entirely remove the panic flag from occurring or have it less likely to occur.

Thanks for reading.

2020/09/25 17:27, Neamir: 
Revamping 'look around' is really interesting. I use 'locate magic' all the time, it is crazy useful for tracking down BNs on foot, I don't understand why more people don't use it (especially now that we have citrine).

If we could take the locate magic functionality (which shows a text map similar to locate spell) and adapt it to some sort of blood sniffing type skill, where a Troll or other good smelling char could see a map of nearby rooms where blood has been left (like via tracks), that could be very exciting. And certainly aligns with Tolkien lore precedent.

> sniff
You raise your nose in the air and flare your nostrils hungrily...


(shows a text map, like locate magic, of nearby zones with symbols to indicate which rooms have bloody tracks...)

2020/09/25 17:47, Ares: 
First fix the damn metal + armour spell idiocy and then start thinking of buffing things that might not need any buffing after that.

2020/09/25 18:45, Draz:   
Having never played a legend troll, I would assume the #1 thing that would make troll more fun is better population (both on their side + white side action). So the usual fixing the biggest issues should help (charm *ahem*, abs+armour, mobility / safe spots on especially on white side).

Going to be pretty hard to line up a fight as a solo troll walking around but also rather easy to get tracked and killed.

We also seem to have a pretty severe imbalance of pk'ers on the dark side at the moment. I think there should be real incentives for pukes to pk like unique items / rewards (you pukes love your items) instead of running around BM for hours getting their TPs for traveling.

Other than that, maybe just give a solo troll something to do. Maybe make huge shovel load somewhere solo-able.a

2020/09/25 19:54, Carl: 
Khuzur is soloable for a legend troll. It would be fun to see more troll only artifacts though! Or even better, raiding achievements?

You have twice razed the city of Fornost to the ground.
You have brought the battering ram to the gates of the Blue Mountains, destroyed the gates, and razed the city to the ground. (Achievement increases with more fun things like the ram)

2020/09/25 22:36, Draz:   
That's a fanastic idea, make Trolls sort of like the ultimate landscape / gate destroyers. Give dark groups a reason to bring a Troll along.

Have like a Troll operated war machine (this was in the movies I think) that lets you demolish rangers (maybe even grey cloaked men).

2020/09/25 22:48, Roadkill: 
Trolls could do with more content in general. Troll specific eq. Quests for basic gear, quests for tp bonuses or temporarily (one time only or restricted frequency) added mobility, biggish xp boosts for raiding out west. Trolls should also get 2x wps for any kill that happens outside.

2020/09/26 00:48, Elestir:   
@Roadkill More mobility? You must be joking. Trolls have ridiculous mobility as it is.

The idea of ability to bash otherwise nobash but breakable doors is interesting though. The need for break door is often kind of annoying for darkies (breaker has to leave and raid is over, etc.).

2020/09/26 00:55, Dawnborn:   
Roadkill, I agree with the more content in general and quests. I've been saying that for a while. It would make the wandering around looking for fights somewhat worthwhile. There is something disheartening about walking from the warrens to Ingrove, and then from Slag to OIE the next night and not getting any action at all. Having the chance to pop off and do a sidequest for some xp or item would be nice.

2020/09/26 01:31, Breaux: 
Truth about trolls:

1 troll: butter
2 troll: somewhat scary
3 troll: real fkin scary

What this effectively means is that trolls nowadays are not scary since there are never any troll groups around. Switch some dmg for higher ob to make them more viable solo? Idk

2020/09/26 04:02, Ugurz:   
imagine a troll growing larger, bigger as it levels-up ...
give troll abilities as follows ...
at level ....

6+ = immune to poison
11+ = immune to sleep
13+ = never hungry
16+ = immune to blind
19+ = never thirsty
21+ = immune to lighting
26+ = 20% less damage from fire
28+ = can wade thru rivers with reed in inventory
31+ = second attack with left hand (weapon or bare hand)
33+ = can learn up to 125% climb (big troll reaching up to cliff)
36+ = bash affects up to 2 separate enemies*
38+ = can bash breakable, no-bash doors (normal door bash chance)
41+ = all attacks are effective vs. metal
43+ = can bash normal doors 100% of the time (no failure)
46+ = stomp attack (3rd attack per round)*
49+ = greatly improved bash vs blocked doors
51+ = bash affects up to 3 separate enemies*
56+ = kick attack with second foot (4th attack per round)*
61+ = bash affects up to 4 separate enemies*
66+ = sun-stone replaces sun-death, death 1-hit, 5 levels lost
71+ = throw rock attack (5th attack per round)*
81+ = sun-stone replaces sun-death, death 1-hit, 3 levels lost
86+ = bash affects up to 5 separate enemies*
91+ = sun-stone replaces sun-death, death 1-hit, 2 levels lost
96+ = strangle & toss opponent (6th attack & bash effect)*
100+ = sun-stone replaces sun-death, death 1-hit, 1 level lost

* only works if single troll in room and no other
trolls in group as troll 'needs room to work' :)

2020/09/26 04:13, Grimble:   
How about if drinking hobbit blood gave some sort of move regen bonus or other type of bonus. Might get trolls to come out west more often. Have to make it so it would only go in a cup or something so they didn't run around with barrels of it. They also need to kill the hobbit themselves to get the blood bonus. Or maybe hobbit meat like a warg does with elf meat.

2020/09/26 05:03, Draz:   
Barrel of hobbit blood feels pretty on-brand for trolls though...

2020/09/26 06:45, Roadkill: 
@Elestir: Trolls have about 10% of the mobility of a solo mounted caster, or mounted group of 2-4 with one bobber. 5% if the group has two bobbers.

They have slightly more mobility than a thief on foot, but less than a mounted thief.

2020/09/26 08:10, Ain:   
Sundeath should be changed!
Make trolls really weak in sun and slow as hell. Drop all defence and use moves like in redhorn snow and blind them or smthn.

2020/09/26 10:12, Elestir:   
@Roadkill That simply isn't true. Maybe for overloaded trolls in metal set without gleaming/fgc and draughts. I've played trolls I mind you and moves never were an issue with them and if I e.g. spotted a non-clueless troll (let's say Svarten) near Tharbad at start of night right now and he would start fleeing towards Warrens I wouldn't even bother chasing, because he can run there almost non-stop.

This is not only problem for trolls, but for any chars that aren't too encumbered. They are just too mobile. Overloaded chars on foot especially in mountains, now that's a different story. IMHO the body weight itself shoud be a huge factor for mobility, so even if not encumbered, you would waste tons of mps just because of your sheer size. Now BOB and other mobility features not available to trolls so easily should get toned down too, so it is somewhat balanced and trolls aren't just sitting ducks when far from Warrens (they should spend at least half the time regenning while resting somewhere on their way from Tbad to Warrens).

2020/09/26 10:16, Slampen:   
I have no experience with ologs, but do they have less mobility than bears?

Bears have very good mobility.

2020/09/26 12:08, Roadkill: 
I have never seen a troll spamrun from Tbad to warrens without stopping at least once on the way, unless they were using draughts or got bobbed.

I have, on the other hand, ridden as a whitie cleric from GH to Isengard without slowing or stopping for more than to bob.

2020/09/26 20:56, Elestir:   
Of course they are using draughts. Why wouldn't they? Do they get really low mp? Just quaff and sleep 20 secs and they fine.

This just gave me another idea. While affected by orkish draught, one shouldn't be able to fall asleep. It could even be used as a counter to sleep spell maybe.

2020/09/26 21:10, Thurge: 
Now *that* is an intriguing idea. Seconded!

2020/09/26 22:56, Roadkill:edited 9x   
Well, when discussing class and character abilities, I disregard single-use items to focus on innate abilities for the comparison. Otherwise we could just assume infinite scrolls of all kinds, rendering comparison of innate strength pointless.

For my cleric, as well as for my troll in my example, I factored in an fgc and gleaming, plus focus for the cleric.

I like your idea, though. And it gave me another one.

Make max absorb lower max mana by 50%. Plain gear does not lower max mana, and go linearily from there by abs percentage. Wearing abs should also reduce mana regen by up to 50%, but convey the same percentage bonus to saves vs arachnia and the sleep spell.

Also, make stored spells lower max mana or max moves by 0,5 points per stored spell level. Storing max levels of spells should give a 100% immunity vs mind spells (blind, sleep), to recede linearly, but reduce regen of the affected stat (mana, moves) by 50% regardless of state (resting, sleeping, etc).

And lastly, make controlling charmed creatures lower max moves by 1% per controlled creature level. As long as the charmies are in the same room, the controller gains up to a 50% special immunity to bash, but is affected by movedelay of 0,2ms, and cannot use items (scrolls, rocks, stun pouches, draughts), or group with any other creatures (players or mounts) while charm is in effect.

Changes along those lines could go some way towards restoring the balance to the game.

2020/09/27 00:27, Dearth:   
Played troll recently and imo it's the most overpowered thing in MUME with almost 0 risk. Only downside is waiting for sun, so winter is most fun. With accurate mappers and accurate timers it is much easier to avoid sundeath than when trolls were originally introduced.

1) Since STR is so high you can hoard draughts much more than you can on zorcs without affecting moves.

2) Trolls won the most out of the change where lvl 25 is same as lvl 50, because in the past unarmed only worked in groups with parrysplit, now trolls have decent OB even solo from lvl 25.

3) Trolls can wield rough staff with unarmed and embed defense items. So you get +25PB and no decrease in unarmed damage. And you can solo get this in 30min. Imo this a bug, trolls were meant to do less dmg with shields.

3) Trolls can wear metals and although metals on trolls are 50% as effective as other races, any absorb on 700hp is still powerful. And you can hoard&spam draughts to deal with the weight.

4) Safespot in Necro with baneberries

5) Can learn and mix healing herblore from Frychia and get +100hp for hour with insane hp regen.

6) They get OB bonus from Sauron's Darkness and STR bonus from Blood of Sauron. Nothing from orkish battle horn.

7) BBT camp spot with ability to check if it's alive.

8) Much easier to bash blocks than other darkies.

9) Can learn 3 pracs in climb with Rahku's quest

So basically in 24 hours you can level yourself solo to legend and have the most powerful character that doesn't need any gear..

Trolls used to be able to solo Eblees and Sage with hewing spear, thankfully they removed it. Pretty sure trolls can still solo lots of stuff by abusing mobs approaching + hewing spear.

2020/09/27 02:06, Draz:   
That downside is huge though, not a lot of people playing warriors on dark side and most groups still aren't going to jump through hoops to bring a troll along.

Draughts to infinity is definitely under appreciated but a lot dark side pk is doing a loop of arda which just makes it soo tough with no mount / sun downtime.

I still think it's a population issue, more people on makes trolls betters (targets, same-side support, other trolls). Otherwise it's tough to play such a linear character that can't handle the flexibility that MUME pop currently requires.

2020/09/27 09:10, Roadkill:edited 1x   
As so many others, you contradict yourself. Saying trolls don't need gear, while assuming hoarding of draughts, baneberries, staff, gems. Why not just assume infinite rocks and scrolls, too?

Ever tried playing troll with just fgc, no draughts or gleaming? Not so mobile.

And good luck finding a steady supply of orcs to mix draughts. Last few times I played troll, I was the only one online.

2020/09/27 10:14, Dawnborn:   
I can reliably spam Smiles from SD to Warrens with 100 pounds of gear, no gleaming, just FGC and no draughts. 146 mp, he's fairly mobile over a decent area. Add a gleaming or a pile of draughts and it gets better. In the winter, assuming I spent the day in SD, I can hit the Shire, and be back in the warrens on two-three draughts depending on if I stop to sleep anywhere or not on the way back.

A troll can have reasonable moves over a somewhat reasonable area, which is probably correct for such giant, dull witted creatures. A trip west should require gear and draughts and gear planning, while a stroll to the moors should be simple.

If doing classic hit/flee in the open tactics though it's pretty easy to run out of moves pretty fast even on a plain set troll. OTOH I find dwarves run out around the same time, which makes for some entertaining moments.

Since combat issues are a player base issue, what I want to see most are things to actually do while looking for that fight. Side quests, rewards, achievements, some sort of small little bonuses. Even if it's just bringing Edda ingredients to get stuff that can heal a few HP or boost stamina a little bit. Which really, would be pretty neat and fit with some of the lore and her tales.

And would make all those wobbits in the Stoor village good for something more than just spiked head decorations on OER.

2020/09/27 12:12, Svarten:   
I don't like the idea of removing sundeath and I don't think it's going to happen. Fleeing into sun is a bit silly I agree, but trolls are supposed to be comedians. You have to have the sun malus penalty, or else at least replace it by something worse.

So I'd like to outline an idea of a penalty that should be possible to implement. It could be applied on top of the sun malus, if people feel the sun malus should be more lenient, and only reducing 1-3 levels.

Remove all equipment from trolls. This will already shave off about -15 or -20 OB from most eq-laden trolls. Then give lazy trolls a -33% penalty to their (unarmed) hit damage, -10 OB, -50 hit points, -2 to all their stats. That should make them equal to orcs, or quite possibly a bit less intimidating. I'll describe a lazy troll: it's someone who doesn't kill pukes, doesn't loot, doesn't hoard, despite being capable (having reached a high level.)

I'd like trolls to receive benefits according to how much damage they incur on enemies. This means that in order to be physically powerful, especially those want to use the unarmed skill, they must consistently kill pukes, eat pukes, loot pukes, and gather a great hoard. (For the sake of this practice, Zaugurz = pukes.) Running parallel to the normal XP system, you would have to fill your troll's belly and feed its ego, or you'd see it suffer and degrade into something feral and orc-like. The important part I feel is that trolls should be strongly encouraged to loot enemies and serve as an eq-sink, so this should be one of the measures of success.

Hunger should be the dominating trait of a troll. Killing a powerful enemy should mean a troll is eligible for a power-up, lasting up to a mume year ~= RL week depending on the quality of the puke and the size of the troll. Multiple trolls should be able to share on the feast of a corpse, but then each should sate their hunger less, and also their bad table manners would waste some of the good food.

Greed should be an additional trait, and would be sated by looting and hoarding valuables. The loot would be 'stored' by renting, and it'd then degrade over time. If the troll has a great hoard, he can expect the power-up to last for up to an entire week. Pukes might be able to recover all or some of it, by killing Grinder and revealing it (both those tasks would take a looong time.) This might result in the troll losing all or part of its hoard, which might mean losing some self-esteem and having to sate his greed all over, perhaps the very next time he logs on. Items in the hoard should decay randomly over one or a cpl RL days up to a week, less for shit eq, more for staves and shinies (but they'd also 'age' real fast so you should go there fairly soon.) A Troll that is successful in killing/looting enemies on a day-by-day basis should prosper, which means that if you'd like to be a super-character, you'd be more or less forced to PK successfully from a low (15-21+?) level, loot every puke you kill, and lug the valuable equipment home, or else be punished.

So, something similar to the credit system but more deeply embedded and with more effect on the character.

A well-fed and wealthy troll should be about as powerful as we are today, a poor and un-fed troll should be about as weak as a reasonably (under-)equipped orc fighter. So if you spot 3 unnamed trolls - maybe take your chances, since they probably are unfed, and therefore no worse than orcs. Spot 3 named trolls, you better start running (can expect them to deal normal unarmed damage.)

And it'd be level dependent, so for a level 10 you'd see little or no difference, but if you happen to be fucking level 100 you'd need to kill a LOT of pukes and amass a huge hoard to be considered well-fed and prosperous. This would make it generally undesirable to over-level trolls just for the purpose of getting a strong character, balancing the need of hitpower against the need for food. It would also probably be impossible to sustain a huge group of trolls playing a lot, over time.

And back to the remove-all-equipment part. I don't like when trolls get item-conferred bonuses on top of everything else they got, they should instead get intrinsic bonuses equal to perhaps fgc+boots+regular clothing, and equipment shouldn't matter much or at all to them, perhaps barring some weapon artifacts. If they are allowed to wear stuff, the stuff should confer no bonuses apart from perhaps protecting their modesty.

Rather than benefit from equipment they can more or less easily farm or pick up, they should be restricted to wearing at most a weapon and a shield. So there'd be no +ob from gloves, rings and furs, no +db or +moveregen from belts or clothing. Magical items that you have to recite/activate should be unusable. Trolls mixing herblores is a running joke. Draughts and various potions should have no effect, or at most 1/3rd or so.

An idea is to make all weapons deal the same damage, when held by trolls. The idea behind this is that it'd make trolls perhaps consider hoarding powerful weapons too (which would lead to item destruction for those.) The reason to use weapons at all would be to retain some usefulness while being PK-starved, and unable to benefit fully from the unarmed skill. Most trolls would need to resort to weapons either permanently or during periods, simply because they couldn't PK successfully and consistently.

Then since trolls aren't actually benefitting from any kind of equipment, you can multiply their carrying capacity by 2, 3, 5 or whatever, so they can pick up corpses of fallen enemies and lug them back to warrens pretty much unhindered. Or be used as ad-hoc mounts, in case a tiny ally needs a helping hand - but in this case I'd argue that riding a troll should cause a very large regen penalty, since you'd have to be on the edge to not be thrown off or have the troll absent-mindedly chew up your leg. You can also give them loot sacks that are extremely heavy but can contain say 4-5 regular-sized humanoid corpses, in case there is to be a very large feast to be expected.

2020/09/27 18:10, Cronus: 
Damn.. you wouldn't catch me on a troll with those changes.

2020/09/27 18:21, Roadkill: 
I'm thinking you meant to post that in the 'encouraging pk' thread, Svarten.

I would discourage any changes that remove the viability of playing MUME for non-pk, which this would achieve very effectively for trolls.

2020/09/27 21:30, Dawnborn:   
I think Svarten might be going a bit far with some of his ideas, but I would like to see a mechanism for hoarding and a place to store it. Some sort of legend cave (or legend hole?) setup for trolls. That would take a lot of work to implement though and require adding some decent level defensive mobs to keep pukes or other trolls/darkies from just finding the cave and looting it on the regular with little effort.

Troll hunger is broken right now. Somehow a troll can eat a corpse their own entire body weight and not only move freely but somehow violate all sorts of laws of physics in the process. I think corpses heavier than that of a dwarf or so should not be fully consumed and would appear 'partially eaten'. It would also allow a group of trolls to share a large kill. I also think trolls should get hungrier faster and possibly have a random risk of violently attacking the closest living thing if hungry.

On a more realistic level, I'd like to see a hoarding mechanism, some sort of legend home setup for trolls, and the ability again to rent outside of several rent spots. Although I'd suggest if renting in unfriendly country there should be a high chance of waking up to a couple rangers or what have you lurking over your hole waiting for you to wake up.

2020/09/28 05:03, Svarten:   
The definition of a hoard I had was that it was something that made the items inaccessible. The troll would not, and could not deliberately rid himself of his hoard - he would have to carry it with him until it decayed, or until he was killed.

You can definitely break out this hoarding idea, which ought to serve to guide trolls into looting/breaking more equipment, and not change a thing about how trolls work. But this would require trolls to deliberately hoard items, rather than putting the items to actual use. Trolls would have the choice what to do with items they acquired - whether to take them for their own use, or to hoard the items and make them inaccessible. If they chose the latter, they wouldn't pay rent for the hoarded items, and the items would instead degrade/decay over time. And hopefully some particularly aggressive pukes would then try to reclaim the hoard in the near future.

Not saying it won't happen, but there's little reason for trolls to make that last choice, unless you add some tangible benefit for them to do so that outweighs the opportunity to outfit for instance an allied Tarkhnarb or Numenorean with full shining. And if you want to keep sundeath as it is, I don't see any reason to give trolls any additional benefits, rather the contrary.

Another idea is to enable hoarding items and make them totally inaccessible no matter what, and for the trouble you get an achievement saying how much you looted so far. Maybe you would need to hoard valuable things to level up, instead of gaining TPS? And the first troll to amass a hoard worth 1 million gold gets a coke. That's probably very easy to implement.

2020/09/28 06:46, Dawnborn:   
I see no reason to haul a horde around though. In the books it's pretty clear the trolls had a central place to dump them. Also around Arda there are several troll cave complexes with some sort of locking room that serves as a half baked hoard idea, with piles of crap written into the room desc. The caves south of Hillman have such a room but it loads nothing at all.

I'd like to see those rooms load more gear, and have a guardian troll that you can give gear to for xp or some other benefit. It would go into a chest and slowly decay over time. Or use the same mechanism as with Zorcs.

2020/09/28 10:58, Telessar:   
Trolls need more of an upgrade ? Anyone with half a brain can warlord a troll. They're overpowered as is

2020/09/28 11:58, Svarten:   
I think you missed my point where a troll has to actually be helped by being able to drop a lot of loot upon death. Else he can just eat, hide or give away the equipment. The benefit must outweigh any potential other use of the equipment, such as using it yourself or giving it to some ally. You have to give trolls the chance of defending their hoard, and then they'll build a hoard - if it gives them any hope of PK happening, hopefully on their terms. Or some other incentive, but people don't seem to want to be forced into this behaviour by for instance reducing their character's hit power and stats until they comply and get their asses to work. And you can't very well give trolls any additional bonuses.

My idea would mean that my hovel is anywhere I happen to sit down during daytime. It's simple and it works. You can do this in the game already, but it means you have to carry a stash weighing perhaps 100s of pounds, and it's very detrimental to both the characters ability to go about his normal business, and the ability to defend said stash during an attack. There's also no way to advertise your wealth to the enemy, other than emptying your backpack and pick it all up in their room, while they are watching. My idea would mean that a a general idea of a troll's wealth is visible and advertised to enemies, that you don't have to pay the extra movecost, and in return the hoarded equipment is unusable until you die - plus that it decays if you aren't killed reasonably soon.

It would be welcome to give trolls a couple more locations where we can make a stand. Make those places un-scoutable, add BBT-quality defenders for each, give them the same ability to chase across rooms, and add unbreakable exits that shut instantly whenever someone attacks the site, making each attack an extremely hazardous do-or-die situation. This could all be done as soon as a troll decides to sit down in the location, throw his treasure on the pile, and claim it as his hovel. The location should be well advertised on the outside by a Large and Intimidating Sign Post, announcing the name/s of the current owner/s (although there still might be more troll guests) and mentioning that it's not safe to wander in there. Maybe give the owner the ability to kick out and deny access to unwanted troll guests, like he's the king in there. I think trolls might want to sit down in one of those, then. Else if you don't give us locations like that to defend in, I'm also quite happy to defend my treasure in Warrens, having Grinder serve as treasure guardian, but I'm NOT happy with leaving it lying around the land for anyone to pick up.

If it's too much to ask for to have an unlimited amount of items in your hoard and not pay the movecost, or if there's some other issue with it, like creating a single point of failure for the overall wealth distribution, in case a prominent troll becomes REALLY rich for a short while? (Someone here might remember the receipt-hoards upon prominent puke deaths... brr!) You may then instead be forced to pay the movecost, but get to use your hoard as you wish, once you picked it up again. Eat it, use it, split it with troll friends, give to other friendlies, whatever.

2020/09/28 22:15, Obvious:   
Is svarten the new elestir? Just a rambling stream of consciousness jesus

2020/09/29 06:36, Svarten:   
Well of course I'm the real Elestir. No seriously, I am. Who are you again?

I chose to interpret the thread to be about the game's need for trolls. Not the various egoistic needs that troll players have themselves for their characters. Would you rather that I contribute more ideas such as those voiced by others such as 'remove sundeath', 'better damage', 'better moves', 'immunity to spells' and 'ability to bash entire rooms'? I don't know if any of those were serious, but sheesh...

I tried contribute and elaborate on an idea I have for directing how trolls ought to behave in the game, being both destroyers and hubs for the equipment they loot, and providing a mechanism for them to benefit from this, by encouraging pukes to attack them. If the potential gains for fighting them are huge, so that if you'd spot a troll you'd know is guaranteed to drop full shining upon its death, maybe you'd go out of your way to get a group together and attack it whereever it went.

Another idea: trolls could be required to loot valuable things just to level up. Instead of TPS they'd have to acquire wealth. Tough for lowbies, but you can as a troll pretty easily farm places like Moria for gems/shinings, and people should learn soon where the good stuff loads. A wealth equivalent to 1000-2000 gold for hero level and about 3000-5000 for legend level shouldn't be insurmountable, and make it about as difficult to level up a troll as an orc. Trolls would be encouraged to PK and roam far from a very low level, which they are well suited to do anyway.

And if you'd die, you'd lose some wealth as well as XP. This would make it more difficult to recover your level after a death, and balance the need for acquiring wealth against the risk of losing it.

The underlying idea is to aim at letting trolls diverge from the path that other characters take in the game, and give them a different role. Instead of farming like everyone else for equipment, XP, fame, they would be more of a natural disaster, a walking deathtrap when they managed to get the jump on you. And also they'd play a role of roaming super-mobiles, providing a source of wealth for those brave and strong enough to fight them back.

2020/09/30 19:08, Carl:edited 1x   
Bill Bert and Tom hate your guts if you kill them as a troll and become aggressive to any troll that enters for a few MUME years. This makes it difficult for any troll that wants to kill them for getting rid of glowswords from the game.

I think it would be fun to make a quest to decrease the amount of time that they remember that they hate you or a way for them to forgive the past.

Here's an idea:
Just like the Zaugurz have a credit system, allow BBT to have a credit system for allowing trolls to be forgiven.

You can throw down treasure from the mouth of the cave, and eventually if they have enough equipment/gold then they will forgive the troll who is giving them treasure.

Treasure given to BBT will be kept in their treasure room. Same concept as EBLEES where if BBT dies, they can loot all the treasure that Trolls have given.

This is just an idea to give BBT new life. A way for Trolls to enjoy killing BBT, add some spice for trolls who want to hide in BBT by giving them treasure and waiting for people to try and get it back.

This could also give people who want Trolls to be hoarding an idea so that trolls would want to keep a hoard and be able to kill BBT and then immediately be forgiven again.

2020/09/30 19:48, Svarten:   
Carl, it's an alright idea but as the idea stands, trolls would be able to simply retrieve swords, pay the bribe, get pardoned, sit in BBT to guard it, then have some Tarkhnarb/Bns kill the mobs and take the bribe back. Can repeat indefinitely, as necessary. Pukes would have zero chance to collect swords if trolls did this.

I think the easy solution is that any equipment you 'bribe' BBT with should just be removed, making it costly - let's say 3k gold with no refunds for a group of 3 trolls to pull this trick.

If you do want to add wealth to BBT however (might be a good idea since it'd make the area more interesting to jump into), here's an idea.

The equipment thrown in could be made to decay, so it could be looted by enemies but it'd have to be done within a reasonable time frame.

The mobs could have to stay angry for a while without any chance for pardon, else you could just throw gold at them and get pardoned on the very next pop.

These two things could be made to happen together.

It should take at least one or two mume weeks to get pardoned, after a troll bribed BBT. The bribe would have to remain inside BBTs treasury during this entire time. Once the time's up, the added treasure is removed from the game, and the trolls are pardoned.

This way, any pukes (or even Zaugurz) that notice what the trolls have been up to might be inclined to loot it while the trolls are away, seeing there's perhaps extra loot like several sets of shining mails and gems worth 3k gold in there, plus the off chance that the trolls failed to collect one of the glowswords. Tarkhnarb can loot it too, but risk getting jumped by pukes, and might receive less or no backup from trolls. The trolls won't get pardoned in either case, if the bribe is taken away.

2020/10/20 10:50, Belamir: 
Started playing a bit again for the first time in a very long time. Like, before the level rebalance 'long time.'

The idea earlier in this thread about making trolls eff vs. sanc is in my opinion a great idea. Both player trolls AND mob trolls, of course. I feel like this would do a bit towards rebalancing the PvE environment that got so wrecked with the level power change, in addition to making trolls more powerful, even when solo, in some PvP scenarios.

2020/10/20 11:06, Headmaster:   
Parasols. Friggin' parasols.

2020/10/21 02:10, Carl: 
Troll's can now mend metal. I'm a happy troll.

2020/10/21 07:09, Yetu:   
... this I must discover ... being the smiting metal-troll that i am ...

2020/10/21 20:04, Tapio:   
About hoarding. Maybe carrying impressive shiny things attract mob trolls to you? So trolls get oversized crows and easier to xp solo. Or even trap with them. And make it really worthwhile to hunt trolls for pukes. Bit boring in the same way as charmies are boring. But it would both make it more worthwhile to log on as troll solo. And attract pk.
Maybe your minions lose control of their greed every now and again and attack you? Anyway, there needs to be something that fascilitates it to log on as troll. And something that makes it so that trolls prefer to group with player trolls if this mechanism actually lure more ppl to play troll.

Another idea. Give trolls a room where they can narrate to orcs. Or introduce a herold to noc that shouts out what the trolls have narrated. Make it so that it is only hearable withing noc city defence. Too gimmicky maybe. But would create two hot spots sortof, narrate room in warrens/wherever it is. And sneaking in to noc once pukes find out trolls are in the game. Its always attractive to eavesdrop :)

2020/10/21 20:17, Facelift: 
Why is troll deaf?

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