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2020/11/10 22:04, Rísneth: 
Also, I personally hate randomess. There's already way too much dice roll involved in every aspect of PK and that sucks.

Dying to dice roll sucks, not getting a kill because of dice roll sucks.

It's frustrating because it takes nothing but luck.

I don't want PK to be based on luck!

2020/11/10 23:11, Elestir:   
@Zintilden Regarding randomness on effects duration, why not. I would actually prefer if blindness duration was not constant but instead based on spell power of caster and resistances of the target with small random element to it (ideally with no 100% failed blinds also; even few seconds of blindness is better than that). And for durations that are constant, MUME itself could show that duration in stat. Anything so useful that is scriptable in client should ideally be hard coded in MUME and provided by game directly so that those who aren't capable of scripting aren't at disadvantage.

2020/11/10 23:24, One:   
The simplest fix to blind would be to remove the direction you flee. Right now you get

You flee head over heels.
You flee direction

Remove the second line and your mapper will be 1 room off and become less reliable for spamming away.

2020/11/10 23:28, Belamir: 
Seems like a simple fix, and even if it doesn't solve the 'blind mapper user' issue 100%, it's definitely a step in the right direction. I like it!

2020/11/10 23:33, One:   
Simple fix sure. But I have suggested it multiple times over the last year and nothing happens. I think the right people have to agree before any changes are made, even for something as small as this.

2020/11/11 00:43, Zintilden:   
Randomness (depending on which 'features', 'mudlle', 'spells', 'skill', etc.) wouldn't be 'luck' that determines the outcome of a fight, as there is a possibility of luck in anything, but rather more based on a players skill IMO. PK areas for example should have more randomness, so that group of 3+ could be as vulnerable as the lone wolf player.

Just for an example is Wind Swept. Very cool area. It is very random and the time of the day could also play a huge factor battles here, add the mudlle to the equation....cool, am I right? Fun? The odds you just knew are flipped, until some player shows up leading many that has a timer on it because the mudlle is not random and they just don't dare to enter until their script or timers say to do so. That player (and therefor his/her group as well), now have an advantage and if the mudlle timer was more random, they are also at a huge risk - each and every one of them (ie getting separated from their leader or possibly spamming that leader down who no longer has his/her group in tow because they were swept elsewhere and now moveless). Basically that randomness would effect all those players different, sure, I guess you could consider it 'luck'?

The followers would have to work harder to keep their leader or themselves alive, the elite leader is easier to kill, or it may backfire and someone may get themselves killed too. I don't think that is luck, I think it forces people to use skill more and balances things out more for solo players or weaker players to have a chance at a good fight, regardless of who they are fighting.

At the end of the day now as it is, you have people that stay away, afraid to go anywhere near there for example. I would rather take 'luck' and 'randomness' any day of the week than to see the next generation of players fear to get involved in PK, and this would also motivate and boost confidence to spur them to PK more IMO.

Wouldn't you rather that? Or you want them ez kills? Sorry if someone gets blind and you all can't suddenly wizkill because of 'mmapper', show your damn skill and use a combination of things and not just for the sake of quick blinding someone and spamming them down. Is that a 'challenge' really?

Mmapper is not the problem here. Anyhow, carry on with the tunnel vision, I don't want to interupt anymore than I already have!

2020/11/11 02:06, Redruth:   
+1 Zintilden!

Also, would be nice to have mobs that have more sophisticated scripting/AI and behave as dangerously as an average player.

Obviously, suffering the mobdeath consequences from this would need to be curtailed, but god, the PvE in this game is a snore compared to the PvP. Maybe I just haven't gotten far enough into the new zone.

2020/11/11 07:20, Dearth:   
@One good idea, though mappers could be upgraded to still determine where you are based on available exits: mapper displays all possible rooms red, as you keep moving mapper remembers the exits until mapper has combination of exits that make your current room 100% certain. For a good programmer like Jahara, this is definitely doable.

Hide both: direction where you flee AND exits available. It is still possible to program mappers to determine where you are based on 'Alas, you cannot go that way...' but it takes more time, thus making blind more meaningful.

Elestir&Risneth made good points about random blind being too OP, I think.

2020/11/11 10:35, Elestir:  edited 1x   
@Risneth wrote: 1) The only way to keep 'magic eq' (most smob items) is to play X amount a time per month or that eq gets wiped during 1st of next month. Time spent in towns does not count.

Bad idea, as that would drive away players who don't have much time rl and can only play now and then. We already sort of have this for artifacts and ent quest bonuses. No point to extend this to all magic eq.

@Risneth wrote: 2) Make blind confuse you, causing you stumble on random dirs every now and then to unsync mapper and also to make it an actual viable spell in open pk.

I already explained why this is bad idea. Instead I can imagine blind confusion giving you an extra move-delay now and then. But duration of blindness should be toned down significantly anyway, as it is OP as it is (but at the same time make it always blind the target, even if just for few seconds if he 'saved' the roll).

@Risneth wrote: 3) Make charm a higher level spell requiring more pracs with the amount of mobpower being able to charm cut in half (charm limit is like store, so just cut it straight to half). That will make you think twice to where you want to specialize and makes it harder to abuse. To compensate, make call familiar a somewhat useful spell for young mages/clerics.

In other words: make MUME more boring to charmers, as they will be more limited by pracs and charming power. How about making it instead more fun to those who have to fight charmers by bringing more weapons they can use against it into the game? I prefer game where every1 can have fun, not a game where every1 has to struggle...

What would help toning down the charm is making the aggressivness of charmed mobiles lower compared to normal state. E.g. each time charmed mob decides to hit someone on its own, he gets like 50% chance to reconsider and abort the attack.

Another feature to counter charm could be a new spell: purging shield. Each time you get attacked while having this shield up, it would be equal to casting weak dispel magic against the attacker, which would slowly but consistently weaken all magic effects on him, including charm, eventually dispelling it completely. We could also have equipment endowed with this spell, so by simply wearing it, you would automatically have this shield up.

2020/11/11 15:46, Ruen: 
How about warriors that are superb in bash bash 20% faster and are guaranteed two eff vs bashed hits on their bashed enemy if they do not flee and do not change weapon?

2020/11/11 19:12, Elestir:   
@Ruen Bash is already OP as is. Superb bash actually helps to overcome high defense (it sort of adds to OB for the purpose of landing a bash), so it is not useless to have it that high, plus it probably helps with bashing doors too which is very useful.

What I personally hate on bash is that if you bash someone who was aggressive, his defenses are still suffering from his aggresive mood even though he is unable to perform any offenive action, and likewise if you bash someone who was wimpy, he still has the bonuses of that defensive mood. IMHO mood of bashed person should be completely irrelevant for his effective defense while bashed.

2020/11/11 20:00, Draz:   
Warrior bash is pretty rough comparatively though, I can order my charmie/dreadful to bash while I flee away (and mobs have higher level, faster bash compared to a player warrior?). 'Standard' warrior stats tend to get outbashed by 71%-81% scout bash (due to dex affecting bash speed?).

Seems like great bash % should give warriors an edge in terms of speed at least (bash speed is still super random) otherwise what do warriors bring to the table?

2020/11/11 21:31, Elestir:   
Bash speed is probably DEX and encumbrance based. So the higher DEX you have and less eq you carry (STR maybe helps here too) faster the bash is. Skill doesn't seem to affect bashing speed from my own experience.

You ask what warriors bring. They bring the ability to reliably bash high defense targets without parry split (other warrior fighting on wimpy in max defensive set, scouts, war-mages fighting on wimpy, etc.). Something combos can only dream of.

2020/11/11 23:48, Ruen: 
im not saying bash is not good, I am saying bash for a warrior does not do much for a solo pure warrior. For the bash to be worth anything there have to be other players around to help take advantage. I warrior cannot take advantage of the bash. I am thinking that the warrior should be able to also take advantage of the bash.

as it is now, my experience is like this
see someone, i bash and they cast
i get hit with spell, they get bashed
wait
wait
wait
i hit them once
they recover.

It may seem op to you but to be outbashed by combo characters, who can also take advantage with stored spells, or bow/arrows is kind of a bummer. Their really is no point in playing a pure warrior solo. And I often cannot find a group as a pure warrior. Their damage is so predictable and slow. No block, no teleport, no counter to blind, no counter to autohit charmies, slow bash, 1 hit free? hit during bash,
bash delay (which is easily avoidable), and hit delay for higher damage weapons, which staffed pukes can cast flee faster than i can hit flee.

2020/11/11 23:51, Belamir: 
I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head there.. not a great solo class. But works well with others.

2020/11/12 01:09, Elestir:   
For soloplay as warrior, you shouldn't rely so much on bash. Also it helps to utilize keep-at-bay and eff v riding of burnished hewing spear when duelling. Those combos will just impale themselves whenever they try to hit you and you wont wait for their bashes to land... And other than that you can hit flee them.

2020/11/12 01:29, Belamir: 
How much does race affect the usefulness of keep at bay? I.e. size?

2020/11/12 02:31, Elestir:   
I guess it's relative. If you fight against enemy who is much higher, it will be harder to keep him at bay and it will be easier for him to keep you at bay if he uses spear and you do not. But it's mostly based on your OB.

2020/11/12 16:50, Ares: 
Race has INSANE effect on keep-at-bay, for example small hobbits even though wielding a massive spear cant keep anything besides slithering snakes if even that at bay.

Any kind of Item based counter to any kind of problem is imo stupid and just makes stronger players even stronger. Leave some hope for newbies also? eh


2020/11/12 16:55, Breaux: 
Two things on bash—
1/ dex doesn’t make much difference speed wise. Whenever I play my warriors with superb bash and 14-17 dex they more often than not seem to get outbashed by combos.
2/ superb bash doesn’t seem to make much difference either. On my L60+ dwarf in full set and with almost perfect bash stats I still failed to bash Woland (120 odd defence?).. let’s say I had at least 150 ob, in moors.

To me it’s all very random.

2020/11/12 17:16, Elestir:   
Management should make it clear what affects bashing speed by specifying it in help files. Makes zero sense that they do not clarify that.

I noticed bears bash kinda fast, and I also noticed war-scouts tend to bash fast, and the common factor there is high DEX and usually low encumbrance, hence I believe that's what affects it.

2020/11/12 18:06, Belamir: 
Weapon speed have any effect on bash speed?

2020/11/12 18:09, Slampen: 
I dont have the impression that weaponspeed is a factor on bash speed.
Based on playing hobbit with bash and nimble blade.

2020/11/17 15:43, Osilin: 
I have also advocated here and there that mapper assistance while blinded should be zero. Blinding may be easy, but not THAT easy plus MUME is built like kinda real world (zones are logically attached) so you still could eascape from E-priest to Warrens, for example, while blind and moving northeastish.

2020/11/19 15:57, Gimilzagar:   
Every single spell you target a player should give you a message and everyone in the room that you cast it and at whom. For example cure serious, cure light, strength etc. Same with spells dropping, everyone in room should see that your armour spell drops, shield, sanc etc, every buff. This this would make the game so much more dynamic and reactive.

Some new itemization has begun going in the right direction, like robe from magus being for a certain type of casters. Absorb eq should never been an option for mages in any way. There should be such great maluses that either its unusuable like they cannot cast spells being hindered by their heavy equipment or it would lower their max mana. To remedy the lack of survivability from this, other changes would likely have to be done.

Parrysplit is also another problem introduced as a sollution for people having too high defence, but it gives other issues. Warriors while solo are relatively useless in many situations. But in a group of 3 they are a menace rendering your defence non existant, which is terrible for the game. At the very least the formula for parrysplit needs to be heavily reworked if not removed completely. Which would require a complete rework of the combat system.

2020/11/19 18:42, Belamir:edited 3x   
I strongly agree that casters in full metal are unbalanced, but I'm not sure I agree with how you're recommending it be addressed. It seems to me that the issue is with the interaction between the armour spell and high absorbtion armour - for some insane reason, the two stack. Addressing this (say, by making armour spell function similar to how iron ring works - only compatible with leather, shining chain, etc... or by making armour spell not 'stack' so significantly with metal) would make super-absorbtion mages less of an issue without simultaneously destroying combo classes that rely on being able to cast in metal, and who already have a smaller than normal mana pool.

Building on the second idea - you could, for instance, have armour spell basically 'bump up' the effectiveness of the physical armour you are wearing, up to a max of, say, shining-equivalent. So any metal armour worn paired with armour spell gives you physical absorbtion equal to shining metal - and any chain armour worn paired with armour spell gives you physical protection equal to shining chain. This would also make it mostly pointless for casters to wear shining, reducing equipment dependence in the game. Probably have to have armour spell be at least a certain strength to get the full benefit, or else all the combo chars (seems like every char these days) would just practice armour spell and then everybody's effectively in shining!

2020/11/19 19:02, Breaux: 
1/ Agree that physical armour and armourspell stack way too well. Can’t it somehow work like natural db and shieldspell ? They stack a little bit, but definitely not enough to warrant a mage throwing statpoints into DEX, or a significant amount of pracs into dodge. It seems fairly balanced and it’s hard to “game” that aspect for extra DB. Feel like we should do something similar for armour.

2/ good job on releasing new items - this is a good way to promote variability in eq and character builds. Look at that pendant for instance - it all of a sudden created a new niche of combos (bashing call lightning) which was practically not viable before. Throw in a couple of new skills / spells and coupled with those new items we might see some new pretty cool setups.

2020/11/19 19:54, Draz:   
I don't think we have to worry too much about nerfing mages / clerics a bit. Releasing items pulling them away from metals actually makes them stronger.

I love the idea that armour spell visibly drops to everyone in the room, that would be a huge deal in closable fights (when you're trying to guess between someone quaking or re-armouring).

I also love the idea of staff working like an iron ring, doesn't work in full metals / shining plate. Gives shamans a nice little benefit as well! So you could still go full armour + metals you just can't use staff and have to make use of some of the other cool foci.

2020/11/19 20:55, Osilin: 
Idea of necessity of choosing either staff or plate armour sounds very good!

2020/11/19 21:10, Slampen:edited 1x   
.

2020/11/22 23:44, Ares: 
I have to say im very tired of this consumable festival. Every experienced player and especially the pk-addicts can these days have every imaginable helping consumable and herblore at their disposal at any moment. This creates a situation where it gives such an massive edge to people who can afford to use all these helpers.

Would really like to see some reduction to the power of all consumables so this fucking game would again be a bit more random. At the moment an experienced player with consumables has zero risk against same level and equipment character.

Single herblore on at any given time.
Consumables have cooldown, all scrolls 1 per a given time.
Stun pouches, one per given time period.

What is the point of getting new players in the game when they are getting so utterly slaughtered by these players. Not to mention it kills the PK overall aswell, when you always have to be afraid that the opponent has 1000hp extra worth of scrolls.

Also make notrack mobs trackable. Nobody enters closables anymore because you are always afraid of finding 2 mother eagles to go with that pack horse. Even eagles leave a trail of feathers, shadows a trail of negative energy ... etc. Notrack boots are also retarded, harder to track .. sure, faster decaying tracks .. sure... but in the hands of some experienced player (and no average player almost never sees these items) these make them completely unkillable ... whats the point?

Rant end ... this game has become boring.


2020/11/23 02:04, Draz:   
Well game is super fun for me but I agree, a dedicated grinder can build up some truly extreme advantages that make it noob unfriendly.

You didn't even mention rocks which I think should fail 50% of the time and explode all your remaining rocks if used (can only carry 1).

Very good ideas! I actually do love parts of the ways you can really go to the extremes to customize your character but they should be 'mostly' small nice to haves instead of game altering power (or they should be very carefully selected and balanced).

I love when I have to invest resources / time + energy or make careful decisions to push my characters towards a set of strengths and weaknesses that make him really shine. Scouts managing weight actually does this really well, I literally count the amount of bat furs I'll carry.

Ashen blade is a pretty good example of this, tough to get, but real nice but you'll still happily play without it. Purple scrolls, maybe ok in isolation if that's just a consumable dynamic we're ok with, people constantly battling over e priest is sweet. Chief sucks though, orcs can't even participate! Where's the fun in that :)

2020/11/23 19:27, Elestir:   
One way to balance parry split would be making it reduce the damage. I.e. you would still have much easier time hitting your target when he is fighting outnumbered, but you would deal bit less damage.

(I admit I am inspired by Albion Online here, as there they have this thing called resilience, which was originally called focus fire protection and its purpose is to make huge fights more balanced, i.e. less about insta wizkills. They also have stat called resilience penetration which helps to overcome this protection and differs for various weapons...)

2020/11/23 21:24, Randomo:   
Just 2 cents from an unknown player. I've been playing mume for past 10 months or so, and played way back in ancient history (90's).

I play darkies 90% of the time, but also have legend dwarf and elf chars.

What I would love to see is for playing a warrior to become fun again. Warriors are the dogs and losers of mume. Yes, sure, if you have a group of friends with you, you can pve, and pvp is not so bad for warriors, but in general playing a warrior solo is just a terrible and difficult chore. I am often playing alone, and there is no reason to ever play warrior by myself - ever - when I could simply play a scout or shaman with raise dead.

Every single ability warrior is eclipsed by other 'classes'. The only thing warrior has going for them - more hit points. That's a sad state of affairs.

Please make warrior viable to play solo in pve. What about some of the abilities given to warriors in other muds. Some of these may not work for mume pvp balance, but some definitely could. They could also be implemented in such a way that they don't work as well in group combat, so as to avoid groups of warriors becoming overpowered. Some random ideas:

multi-strike: some passive conditional chance for warriors to just dish out alot more melee damage, helping to mitigate their current pve range, which is extremely limited.

Riposte: some version of this idea, to help warriors take less and deal more damage in melee.

Charge: not the broken mounted version that currently exists, but something warriors could use for an 'alpha strike' affect - the sort that mage, warrior and thief all have in spades, while warrior has zero.

Dirty tricks: eye gouge or throwing sand in people eyes - some temporary status affect similar to blind, or just some defense degradation or something.

Really, I am just asking for something - anything - to give me a reason to play warrior. They have always been my favorite personally for style. I just like warriors. Lots of people do. Legend warriors shouldn't be these one dimensional tanks who can only function in pve with the help of others, and have absolutely zero pve mitigation (which every other character type has a vastly superior range comparitively).

Anyone who wants to say that warriors are actually great and very playable as they are, please spare me. Unless you have friends to play with, or want to play 10x to make the progress scout/mage/cleric makes in 1x, it's not a discussion.

2020/11/23 22:46, Draz:   
Yes! I would love to play some warrior if I could get even a moderately comparable PvE experience. Even though I PvP 95% of the time it's still annoying to like not even be able to Ohurk Chief by yourself for some cash or anything remotely independent.

I don't want to log on and see no one and then have nothing to do.

2020/11/23 22:53, Ares: 
As suggested somewhere before to make warriors viable for solo play.

Swing skill, delayed massive swing with your weapon with a chance of hitting multiple mobiles in a room. Cant be abused with multiple warriors as they have a high chance of hitting friendlies but will make soloing much more viable.

2020/11/23 22:59, Elestir:  edited 1x   
What would also help warriors is faster regen while resting/sleeping, because warriors lack in healing skills compared to casters and they usually lose more hitpoints while fighting compared to scouts or casters. Naturally scouts would also profit from this a lot.

2020/11/24 00:48, Draz:  edited 1x   
Regen + swing are great ideas. You could make 'warrior regen' tied to warrior level so it's possible to cheat getting it with pracs (if we don't want say scouts to have this regen, not that buffing non-casters would be a huge deal).

Break points are also a good way to accomplish it, for example anyone who is <50% gets either zero regen boost or drastically reduced compared to breaking the 50% warrior level threshold.

Not to mention, lot's of sleeping / resting warriors on the map sounds good for business (PK)!

2020/11/24 05:07, Elestir:  edited 1x   
Scouts should have access to that as well, especially for move-regen. No-one enjoys spending half of their sessions regenning moves or hit points. Sure, if they are under pressure of pk and are denied resting/sleeping, they shouldn't regen fast, but otherwise why not?

Regen progression is already part of game, i.e. the more hps you have, the faster you regen, but only by very little, so it's barely noticeable. That feature could also be amplified.

2020/11/24 05:16, Uge:   
So you want an endurance boost? Have you tried the +hp regen eq? Is there any new +hp regen gear in those new zones. Not sure how much a hp regen boost will help for solo pve. I would say make it possible to throw someone out of the room, or bash them out of a room. Then you can pve groups by separating them. Mobs should probably wander back in after 1-2 min. But for pk it would make trapping insane :(. I suppose you could make the direction random, and not possible for people riding. But it would still be overpowered for pk.

2020/11/24 10:28, Ares: 
And we are back to the consumable problem, with endurance boost +hp regen items and healing herblore on, the warrior will become just some retarded unkillable thing again. It needs damage boost not survivability boost. And sanctuary as it is ... will negate everything ofcourse ... and everyone can get purples ... this fucking circle.

Just start fixing from somewhere, dont just add new shit that makes things even more complicated.

2020/11/24 13:48, Malak:edited 1x   
It feel like night and day playing a non-bob, non-herblore thief/scout without a gleaming belt. The item is pretty much required for any roaming PK imo. That said, the game becomes much more engaging and exciting when you have to consider movement point management, which utilizes other skills like climb, swim, sneak, hide, etc. Nothing quite so thrilling as trying to survive a Bree/Fnost trip when you get caught out during the day, heh.

As for HP regen, I have Belt of Fell Hide on my warrior and haven't noticed that much of a difference to be honest. Movement regen seems much more noticable. Then again, I have 3x more HP than moves so I guess that makes sense... Are there any other HP regen boost items?

As for consumables... I feel that they both help and hurt pk. They add a dynamic element to the otherwise hack/nuke gameplay. The haves will be more willing to PK. In equal gear, the have-nots will be less willing. The have-nots in crap/basic gear have not much to lose but are then at an even bigger disadvantage. I think the power level of consumables could be decreased in some way because they currently tip the scales too far in one direction. At least punish or prevent the hoarding of many/multiple consumables?

2020/11/24 16:28, Randomo:   
To me, at least for the idea of making warrior more attractive, consumables miss the mark completely. Higher hp regen is basically worthless imo. The problem is I can't walk into a room with two decent mobs and win - at all - unless they are weak enough that I can hit flee them. The problem is warrior parry gets split, and then those extra hit points are just a couple more rounds to accumulate wounds before you flee for your life.

Warrior needs something of their own that will increase warrior, not some add on bonus for people trying to hybridize scouts and mages. As a warrior, what can I do to leverage charm or mage nukes? absolutely nothing. What can I do to leverage backstab? absolutely nothing - those powers are untouchable. Those are mage and thief powers, nothing warrior can use. There is no argument there as I see it. If anyone comes back talking about stats to let the 'warrior' use nukes or stab, then obviously that character is not a warrior anyway.

However, as a mage or thief, what can I take from warrior? oh... absolutely everything except hit point pool. It's almost like warrior is not a class at all at this point. Even bash is relatively easily ported onto a different class. Warrior is really just a miscellaneous dustbin of abilities for mage and thief to choose from if they would like to be a bit more 'fighty'.

The last thing I would want to see is some new warrior power added, and all it does is enhance mages and thieves, while leaving warriors as meaningless meat shields that noone ever even logs unless their friends are waiting for a tank.

2020/11/25 01:06, Dearth:   
@Jahara this sentence from Project Diablo 2 reminded me of this thread:
[submitted link]
"The team also states that they plan to “take every weak or unusable skill” and tweak it to allow players to make fully-functioning builds around these skills, “opening up all kinds of options that didn’t exist previously”.'

On that note thank you for making Shamans great again!

2020/11/25 04:43, Elestir:   
@Ares I was mostly talking about regen while resting/sleeping. If warrior has time to rest/sleep during PK, then he is already safe anyway.

Consumables are only problem if you can mass-use them in single fight (like old scrolls before recite delay was introduced, old rocks when they didn't explode if in big quantities in single room, or more than 1 pbs which was also fixed, but also some yet not fixed cases like mass black candles or mass obsidian eyes - both of those items need big nerf). Powders are also strong when mass used, but they are mostly escape and cast/recite-interrupt tool, not granting kills/damage directly, so not such a big deal to let them be mass used.

Warriors need both, damage and survivability. And if we are talking about reasonable solo pve, fast regen while resting would be huge help. As for damage, I would grant them more damage, but at the same time I would nerf parry split's contribution to damage a lot (as I spoke about earlier).

Right now, there is actually one efficient way solo warriors can take on tougher mobs, and that's via keep-at-bay either with one handed spear (such as blackened spear) or two-handed spear (burnished). On my orc warrior stabber, I was e.g. able to kill all 3 bodyguards of great goblin with barely losing any hp, just by retaliating with keep-at-bay and fleeing with blackened spear (if I used hit-flee, I would surely end up at hurt or wounded and would have to spend next several minutes regenning). But there should be more options for warriors to take on bigger groups solo. If the regen wasn't so slow, even regular hit-flee would be an option.

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