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Damage from weapons catchup  discussions

2015/10/22 06:39, Blondinbella:  edited 1x   
According to weapons lists on internet, the damage over time is the same for Claymore and ebs = 10.2 since the Claymore is slower. I know that if you hit metal the Claymore will do more damage since more damage per hit can go through, but don't you also have to take into account the OB of a weapon when you calculate damage over time? Since Claymore has 10 more OB than ebs it should hit easier and therefore do more damage over time? Even on non-metal mobs

2015/10/22 07:13, Djinn: 
Yes, yes. To both your questions, OB affects your damage. If a weapon gives more ob, it will theoretically allow you to hit harder.

In most cases of 'what weapon do I use', using common sense gives you a pretty good idea. One is a defensive weapon, the other is a bastard sword, which is 1.5 times longer and can both be used single- and two-handedly. The game makes it pretty clear which is the more offensive choice. This only applies when you're looking at weapons in the same quality category of course. There's no point comparing a dirk to sting.

2015/10/22 10:43, Blondinbella:   
OB affects both damage and your ability to hit?

2015/10/22 12:19, Djinn: 
The relative difference between your OB and your opponent's defense is a modifier to the base damage your weapon does, yes.

2015/10/22 14:51, Svarten:   
Here's how I think it works.

I think the game uses a single 'hit roll' to determine whether you actually hit, and how much damage you score. This is some random number distribution that looks like (-50, +50), adding your ob and subtracting your foes' defense, and numbers above 0 indicates a hit. If you do hit, the 'hit roll' is then clipped to the range of (0, 150) and damage is calculated from how high that number is, and the weapon's base damage. I think the listed weapon's base_damage is (sort of) the minimal damage you can score with each hit, occurring when your 'hit roll' is exactly 0, and that there's a damage cap of 4*base_damage, occuring when the hit roll reaches 150.

I'd therefore estimate that +10 ob gives you, on average and over time, +20% to whatever base damage your weapon does, per hit that lands. That's around +2 damage for a sword or +4 damage for a troll fist. It's not going to scale up as your hitrolls become higher, though - it'll just remain to be +2 damage per hit.

If you fight foes you can barely hit, that +10 ob will however make you hit a lot more frequently. Let's say you hit half the time without the +10 OB from the better weapon. Perhaps you then will land hits 60% of the time instead of 50%, resulting in yet another +20% damage boost over time, that ought to be multiplied with whatever extra damage you deal with each hit.

If you on the other hand fight foes that you can consistently hit, you will already be dealing much more damage per hit than your weapon's base damage, and since the damage boost you get for +10 ob is in absolute numbers (say, 2 extra damage for a sword) it's going to be less noticeable in relative numbers when your hits deal 30-40 damage instead of 10-20.

It's therefore, according to this estimate, going to be a rather substantial damage boost, over time, for those +10 ob if you fight foes that you can only hit occasionally. At medium hit-roll numbers, when you consistently hit, but don't yet deal maximal damage with your hits, the added +10 ob will instead make you deal somewhere between, say, +7% and +10% to your relative damage output over time. It's still quite alright! And on the high end of the spectrum, when you deal MAXIMAL damage with nearly all hits regardless of the extra +10 ob, it would eventually cease to give any damage boost at all. Boo. But this won't happen for low level, non-warriors.

2015/10/22 18:37, Elestir:   
I think the contribution from OB to damage varies (depending on both your total OB and target's total defense), but on average is around +10 OB = +1 weapon damage.

I think so, because I assume certain weapons were designed to be balanced to each other, such as orcrist vs glamdring (original stats were 20ob 10pb 10dam vs 15 10 11) or dunadan blade vs engraved broadsword (original stats were 15 10 9 vs 10 10 10). And there 5 OB makes for 1 damage basically.

And regarding the variability. I think it's good idea to improve OB if your OB is otherwise too low, else go for damage. Hence warriors (especially at high level) should focus on damage, casters and low levels on OB.

2015/10/22 21:44, Murra:   
When a weapon is effective vs. something, how does it affect the damage output? For example, EBS is eff. vs spirits but a claymore has more ob and damage. Which would be a better choice?

2015/10/23 08:17, Cohen:   
I think eff/ineff should be +-1/4 or 1/3 modifier

2015/10/23 09:19, Djinn: 
In my day, we just took whatever we could find and hit stuff with it. There were no fancy schmancy calculations! Rabblerabblerabble!

2015/10/23 11:28, Blondinbella:   
Yeah, the reason I was asking is that if I have a mage with good strength that can wield bigger weapons, would it be useful to switch to that or just keep the good old ebs on aggro mood.

2015/10/23 11:57, Elestir:   
Correction to my previous post:
10 OB = +2 damage on average, as Svarten stated.

I believe effs give 25% bonus to damage. E.g. if brd backstab is 270 damage, then sting vs orc/troll is 270 * 1.25 = 337.5.
If it was 33%, it would give sting 359.1 damage backstabs vs orc/troll, which I don't think is the case.

2015/10/23 18:10, Ortansia:   
Whats strength required to wield claymore?

2015/10/23 22:23, Elestir:   
Claymore needs 18 STR as slasher and 12 STR as smiter.

2015/10/24 09:43, Ortansia:  edited 1x   
18 str is kind of high for a mage to reach, even with strength spell :p
and if he use claymore as smiter, which is decent strength, he needs to remove staff to wield it two handed, I'm not sure if it is a good idea tho :p

PS: or can you do damage when wielding a weapon without enough strength to use it effectively?

2015/10/24 11:34, Belgarath: 
Yep, couple of my casters have 14-15 str and wield ornates just to maximize damage output during melee, ob ranges anywhere from 80-95 ob in most places.

2015/10/24 11:46, Elestir:   
You need about 13 base STR as mage to reach 18+ STR later with training/spell/age. Cleric can do with 12 base STR (because of his +3 STR spell).

2015/10/24 14:53, Mops:  -Aranaeth- 
dont ya loose like 2 of weapon damamge and some speed when using that much under required? Ornate with -2 damage and -10 ob doesent seem much, or did you have 17-18 with spells etc?

2015/10/24 19:40, Elestir:   
You surely lose ob in those cases. Whether you also lose weapon-damage and hitting speed I have no idea.

2015/10/25 13:28, Dong:   
Supposed to be that the weapon's (base?) damage is lowered if you use (concussion or smiting?) weapons with too little STR but I'm unsure too. I believe it used to apply, and only to some weapon classes. Could work differently now. I recall that when I played Elf, I used the Warsword with too little strength because the basedamage is so huge that I figured a few points less didn't matter.

2015/10/28 23:18, Jones:edited 1x   
Basically its pretty simple.

Your (ob - oppnonents Def (pb+DB)) * weapon damage is bonus damage.

So basically the damage you do follow so.

warsword with 150 ob hitting 100 def thing will result in extra 9 points of damage. Thus being rounded up is 24, there you add your damage what you get from base STR and base level.

So having low deff will hurt you very much. In the other hand, if you have 200 def, vs 150 OB it reduces the damage.

Everything is nice and neat with def thing until you get parrysplit. So basically with level effect increments, the game turned a lot in the favor of having high OB.

Trolls on the other hand, have most important factor to damage the unarmed %, what will exceed warswords damage on skill levels above 100%

Jones hits unarmed damage about 62 or 64 points per hit in warrens, what comes 20+ as base damage and 200% ob multiplies it to around 60.

Eff vs something will do 1/3 extra damage, so basically hammers will negotiate all armor, except shining. Deff vs something will reduce your damage by 1/3, so elves can buff willow pretty well and dwarves hit stone things very hard.

But mostly as weapons base damage is somewhere around 10, it means that having 10 points in offense will add 1 point to damage, and haveing 10 points in defence will subtract 1 point from damage.

Thats all folks.

2015/10/29 09:14, Ortansia:   
@ Jones pls check your mume mail :p

2015/10/29 09:24, Marion:   
I dont really get you calculations but lets say I have a sturdy mage with 18 str.
Without any ob stuff I have 85 ob with ebs and 95 with claymore. Is it worth dragging around a claymore to use when eagles buffing or aggro buffing vs lesser mobs like brutish troll etc?

Or perhaps dunadan best

2015/11/05 14:22, Jones: 
Ortansia, no mail :(

2015/11/05 14:35, Jones: 
Marion, for unarmored mobs, ebs is pretty good as it slashes fast, but against light armor claymore deals pretty raw damage. So definately it is worth, but you may switch to allarounder dunadan nowdays, if you have wight issue.

2015/11/07 12:06, Belgarath: 
Well, honestly I'm sure base damage has something to do with it, in reference to Dongs post. I still think base damage is still quite effective and (I like to think) that I do a lot more melee damage with an ornate even though I'm too weak to use it effectively. Of course there is always variables, I would always still use an EBS vs undeads, and ornates are of course eff vs metal, but I still think vs an unarmoured mob it would do more damage then EBS :P

2015/11/07 12:46, Elestir:   
That depends also on defense of the target (not just on absorb). The higher defense target has, the more it will be important to have high ob yourself. Hence for highly defensive targets, ornate (20ob) will perform better than ebs (10ob). On the other hand vs mobs that have no defense at all (or when their defense has been lowered enough via parry split), ebs will perform better.

2015/11/10 06:24, Ortansia:   
@jones probably got deleted by recent reboots, I will try to send it again when i have time

2015/11/11 03:49, Jones: 
Ok Ortansia, il check in somewhile then :)

Yes elestir is correct it depends on defence also. As all ob what you have above victims defence will multiply your base damage.
and when it comes to base damage multiplying it is simple.

Ebs 9 dam + 10 ob = 9,9 dam.
Ornate 13 dam + 20 ob = 15,6 dam.
claymore does also 15+ damage.
meanwhile warsword does 21 points of dam and so on.

Back in the old days when trolls didnt have the trollskin couple of warriors used BRD-s to kill trolls, myself included. But armor combined with proper defence was enough to neglect all that damage, so basically daggers were kind of luxury items for noob troll and mobslaughter.
Those were days when defense did matter more because average OB of warriors were around 130 and defensive trolls were kings of battlefield.

2015/11/11 22:03, Ortansia:   
@Jones mume mail sent, hope it won't get deleted again :p

2018/10/12 02:28, Ruen: 
How do people guess how much damage they are doing? I mean, I can guess how much someone does to me with whatever weapon. I can guess how much damage each hit does to me, but I am wanting to know about how much damage I do to another mob or player.

For example it may take 4 or 5 smites to kill a brigand, but that does not tell me how much damage each smite does unless I already know the hps of the mob. Or if I know how much i hit for I can find the hps of the mob. I guess, how do people know how much they hit for and how much hps certain mobs have?

2018/10/12 02:50, Rashnak: 
I guess that in general you don't need to know that.

I'd assume that most people just look at weapon stats, determine that it's damage is X, or Y per second over multiple hits, and assume that's at least the long term average they expect to get, compared to all other weapons.

How much damage they actually do per each hit to different opponent, is not that important to know. Only need to know that a warsword does more damage than a two-handed sword.

2018/10/12 09:28, Cohen:   
You can check Faine's page, miscinfo, Battle messages. The values are a bit outdated there, but it can give you a clue about damage from hits.
How do we find hits/spell damage? You agree on testing with someone, log together, one is hitting/casting spell on another one, record damage, repeat it multiple time to get average value and you know roughly damage for hits/backstab/spells. So you can count how many hps mob has later.

2018/10/12 09:36, Cohen:   
For updating these battle messages you can do it even alone. Rest full, enter room with an aggressive mob, flee after one hit, store damage and battle message, update values and update your client to add for each hit also info about damage border or whatever you find suitable.

2018/10/12 18:35, Eldaril: 
'A bit' outdated? Gray wrote that file in the early 2000s or so... you bet it's a bit outdated.

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