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Orc war-scout catchup  discussions

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2020/09/13 20:33, Draz:   
So I tried out getting bash to 71% at level 26, about 35-40 warrior pracs. Did my usual mob stab rounds, also carrying a bit more (over 100lbs) but have str ring (20 str total currently).

104% backstab, seemed like stab damage vs. mobs got more random (worse) vs. 106% but the chance for stab didn't change much from what I could tell.

Does boot type affect sneak? Wearing metal boots vs. smooth?

2020/09/21 21:03, Alweon: 
Just some fuel for discussion - kinda finding this build weak in PvE and so-so in PvP. Not great PvE backstabs. Feels like I fail lots of sneaks in PvE. PvP stab damage around 250 HPs. Currently level 46 and 1st age (crappy reroll luck). Spear damage seems meh. Can't seem to land consistent bashes in PvE. Bash is so-so vs Warrior and topple everyone else who is wimpy... Can't seem to bash doors very well at all.

inf %b: Str:17 Int:7 Wis:6 Dex:18 Con:17 Wil:9 Per:18

Improved STR and neglected PER for these stats at 1st age.

Your base abilities are:
Str:19 Int:8 Wis:6 Dex:19 Con:18 Wil:11 Per:18

sco
362/362 hits, 44/44 mana, and 150/150 moves.

eq
You are using:
<wielded> a nasty orkish fang (flawless)
<worn as shield> a bejewelled shield (flawless)
<worn on head> a fine chain mail coif (flawless)
<worn on body> a shining chain mail shirt (flawless)
<worn about body> a forest green cloak (flawless)
<worn on arms> a shining pair of chain mail sleeves (flawless)
<worn on hands> a fine pair of soft leather gloves (flawless)
<worn on legs> a fine pair of chain mail leggings (flawless)
<worn on feet> a black pair of padded boots (flawless)
<worn around neck> an old length of iron chain
<worn on wrist> a keyring with a set of lock picks
<worn on finger> a banded ring
<worn on finger> a ring
<worn on back> a leather backpack
<worn as belt> a gleaming belt
<worn on belt> a butcher knife (flawless)
<worn on belt> an enhanced herbal kit
<worn on belt> a water skin
<worn on belt> a stone

stat
OB: 137%, DB: 57%, PB: 40%, Armour: 57%. Wimpy: 200. Mood: aggressive.

You confidently wield a blackened spear, looking very evil-minded.

stat
OB: 146%, DB: 57%, PB: 35%, Armour: 57%. Wimpy: 200. Mood: aggressive.

-=Thief skills

backstab 23/23 102% Hard
dodge 23/23 102% Hard
envenom 14/23 70% Hard
escape 15/16 101% Normal
hide 16/16 103% Normal
pick 3/ 8 40% Normal
piercing weapons 7/16 81% Normal
sneak 23/23 102% Hard

-=Warrior skills:

bash 24/43 72% Hard
endurance 16/58 51% Very hard
parry 4/29 52% Normal
stabbing weapons 16/29 80% Normal

-=Ranger skills:

awareness 5/18 35% Normal
bandage 8/ 8 53% Easy
climb 6/13 72% Very easy
ride 5/13 61% Very easy
swim 6/13 71% Very easy
track 21/27 90% Normal
Wilderness SUPERB (can't see skill % atm but I think around 105%)

2020/09/21 23:42, Draz:  edited 2x   
I've honestly been finding bash to not be super worthwhile in PvP with orc combo OB, such a high % of what you're dealing with is mages on wimpy, going full aggro for a bash is very allin vs. charmie's + other warriors. I like the idea of grinding people down with keep at bay and going for stabs.

I'm going to try reducing the warriors pracs in total for better backstab and get more OB from higher spears %. I think an extra 4-5% OB and better stab gets more kills in the current charmie meta. People are so bad about revealing lately that extra 25-50 stab damage feels very meaningful.

2020/09/21 23:47, Draz:   
Honestly, if I don't like that I may just end up playing as a near pure spears warrior. Stats are basically the same.

My latest reprac I'm going to try to pack on as much absorption as I can while still being able to land stabs.

2020/09/22 18:11, Facelift: 
Stop praccing the crappy stabbing skill…

Weaponskills lost their charm when sneak (hit+flee) got nerfed.

Just get 81% bash instead for reliable bashes and use emb for bashed dps.

With attack and max pierce, you can pierce really fast and hard with nimble and emb hurts much more than your spear when you get em bashed.

Last thing Id do is prac a weaponskill at this state of the game. You want your bash and shoot burst, decent backstab damage and working bash.

TL;DR It used to be that weaponskill scouts were hot shit because sneak hit+flee (25% extra dmg) BUT now they have added nimble blade + per checks to ignore armor, which makes max pierce + max attack nimble blade pretty serious sustained dps. And your burst comes from bashed target eating emb shots. Fuck gimp stabbing skill.

2020/09/22 19:17, Draz:   
Very interesting perspective, but let me elaborate on my logic.

So about majority of what I'm fighting on orc right now is mages, most of those being metal mages, with charm, etc.. The rest are basically warrior scraps / group fights.

Against a metal mage with armor up, max set (ruby ring, str up, nimble) pierce for me 'barely hits' (1-2 damage) in my recent fights. In your typical closable I have to let mages re-armour to dodge quakes effectively. So my theory is that weapon skill will help push through more damage while reducing my exposure to quakes / saving moves.

Furthermore, against charmies, utilizing keep at bay and approach delay bonus give significantly improved ability to grind down charmies over pierce IMO. Fighting charmies / warriors is basically the same, you want to grind them down while keeping your HPs high enough to look for clever backstabs later.

The other most common scenario is two groups clashing with warrior groups. This is honestly where bash has some value but even still, I find it hard to run around with pierce up while aggressive mood whereas keep at bay keeps you scrapping longer / safer / higher damage output. I find it very hard to be useful in these group settings with pierce.

OB-wise, spears have +5% base ob and with Vaelrin's recommended stats you get 107% max stabbing weapons vs. 101% piercing. Even with high scout level you're still going to have 3-4% higher OB with spears.

Furthermore, getting bash to 81% takes more pracs than max stabbing weapons and it's a higher level skill so it hurts scout level more per prac (90% sure about this). I'm not even sure how much bash % matters vs. OB either, OB clearly matters a lot.

Long run I think I'd like both with 71% bash or even 66% but at level 26 unless I want to abandon my stab damage I think spears create a more generally playable character. I also find it necessary to group though on dark side to have enough action/targets so if you're more wizkill stab focused I think just getting bash around level 40-50 makes sense.

2020/09/23 08:00, Draz:   
Alweon, I'd be curious how 76% or 81% bash worked for you. You can definitely trim like 7-10 pracs of end in my experience.

2020/09/24 11:34, Alweon:edited 1x   
This char is still in tweak mode so I'm happy to mix things up till I figure it out.

One concern I have with missile is the extra weight (265 blackened spear vs 175 embellished bow +11 per war arrow since I'm unlikely to access +2 silver tips very often + quiver). Further, it feels awful to pump a bunch of arrows into someone just to have them run off with them (especially if using stips). I can't imagine ever doing so unless I had a high likelihood of a kill (e.g., closable).

While pounding was statistically inefficient vs stabbing, I certainly feel a difference between ornate and blackened spear damage even though number-wise they should be comparable. Ornate was even wrecking against un-armoured mobs (e.g., consistent pounds to awful/incap on salamander vs stabs to bad/awful). Then again, maybe that's the trade off you make for keep-at-bay, being able to poison a spear, and saving 3-4 practice points.

QUESTIONS: I can't recall since I've been away so long - if wielding a spear, do you have to be on foot to get the effectiveness damage bonus vs. riding targets? Also, what determines keeping opponents at bay? Overall OB? Mood? STR/DEX?

Practice-wise, I can drop 16 from stabbing and 14 from envenom to put 16 into attack, 13 into missile, and 1 into piercing. Then I have to sacrifice something else to find the remaining 8 pracs for piercing. And that leaves me with NOTHING to boost bash up to 80% (guessing about 7-8 more pracs).

So basically, I'm short about 15-16 practice points for a pierce/missile build (which also gives up envenom entirely, making me very sad). Therefore, learning a secondary weapon skill seems to be the ONLY way to actually make this character viable based solely on practie-points. Bear in mind, I'm level 46.

Final comment for now: In discussion with a friend, it really seems that there's a bit of a rock-paper-scissors element to PK balance in the sense that you build your char to be strong vs. certain targets, which makes them weaker vs. other targets. This does not seem to apply to charm-casters, but nevertheless. I can build my war-scout to be effective vs. casters, combos, or melee, but not all three. I can't see war-scout winning a 1v1 vs. casters (who almost always have charmies) unless I land a lucky backstab, so focusing on the latter seems more appropriate. In doing so, spear or ornate + bash seems to be the only real viable option.

2020/09/24 14:36, Draz:   
What I was told (by someone knowledgeable) was keep at bay relies on
-Your height
-Being on foot
-OB

2020/09/24 14:43, Draz:   
Theory on why you might have hit harder, concussion is a higher level skill than stabbing weapons so you had a higher warrior level + lower thief level (thus more OB / damage) when you had it prac'd.

2020/09/24 16:52, Draz:  edited 1x   
Or maybe high PER + eff vs. metal means you focus on hitting metal boots? Doesn't fit your salamander test but I suppose that could have just been something else.

2020/09/24 18:05, Praska:   
you want to be scout or warrior, i play char atm whos more warrior than scout .. 95 % stab sneak and rest warrior, works well for me :D

2020/09/24 18:49, Draz:   
@Praska what level? Can you still stab basic mobs or do you just xp with weapon / bash?

What weapon skill did you go with?

2020/09/24 19:20, Alweon: 
Fair point, perhaps I'm setting my expectations too high, heh. I suppose it may be more effective to be a warrior who backstabs or a thief that bashes rather than trying to be amazing at both.

The tweaking continues!

2020/09/25 03:17, Draz:   
I'm going to try warrior with backstab too, sounds way more fun for orc scout. Probably won't work at level 28 but we'll see.

2020/09/25 05:34, Praska:  edited 1x   
Mobbed yday so level 28 atm, and yes i can stab basic mobs outside. Inside it fails a lot :)
Weapon: Cleave - easy to get DOA - bash 75% atm need to get it higher alltho with group it works well. weapon 81%.
I want to get stab sneak back to 96% but not enough pracs.

2020/09/25 18:21, Elestir:   
Keep-at-bay is also based on reach of the enemy. So it is much easier to keep orcs at bay than e.g. trolls, and it is nearly impossible to keep at bay certain mobs like mists. OB is very important yes, so if you go wimpy, don't count on keeping enemy at bay as much as when you are aggressive. Not sure if being on foot helps at all tbh.

2020/09/25 19:14, Draz:   
Oh very interesting, does that mean it's harder to keep at bay a smite attack vs. a pierce attack? I noticed I struggled to keep at bay smites from a dwarf (stubby arms right?).

2020/09/25 21:08, Elestir:   
Not sure if length of weapons is considered except for scenario where both fighters are using spears/halberds (then keep at bay is disabled for both of them).

2020/09/26 00:48, Draz:  edited 1x   
Reporting back with more data:
-Level 27
-Wearing about 90 lbs of abs

Data:
-Did 101% backstab / 90% spears salamander test > consistent 1 hit to incap
-Tested backstab on Nazgum, failed like 3 or 4 stabs/sneaks at 105% backstab inside NOC, alone, etc.
-76% bash did feel like it sucked on mobs, gonna try 81%
-105% backstab hit Nazgum for ~260 (~194 with armour up)
-101% backstab hit Nazgum for 227

Questions:
-Has anyone quantified the affect of weight on stab % success / damage? To me it seems to make damage a lot more random but % success didn't change much if any.
-Does OB directly affect backstab in anyways (wearing your fine leather gloves for the stab?)
-Does wearing metal boots affect sneak / backstab success vs. softer boots other than weight?

2020/09/27 17:49, Draz:  edited 1x   
So I got a great tip I thought I'd share that made scouts way more playable for me. Keep your non-shining metals / abs in your warg for grouping / closables.

Weight seems to be the main variables that affects sneak / backstab success %. At 101% stab at level 28, at 115 lbs I could stab Loremaster maybe 33% of the time and at 90 lbs it was nearly 100% success. 101% could easily stab down Thrakghash / lithes with the lower weight (which is my basic benchmark for good backstab XP).

2020/09/29 18:11, Osilin: 
I can give one (or two) more decent backstab damage benchmarks, because not everyone has Nazgums to stab... Brigand and rattlesnake - decent backstab damage should at least incap them and more pure legend scouts kill them instantly.

2020/09/30 12:50, Rísneth:edited 1x   
I've been stabbed by a zorc for 290 damage, and I'm pretty sure it was a warscout...

Also, when testing stab damage, keep in mind that the 'health absorb' component of metals for an example also reduces damage by 8-13.

2020/09/30 14:38, Malak:   
I've been stabbed by a certain sneaky elf in NOC with sting for ~330ish damage, which would be 264 before the 25% damage bonus modifier. ;)

Out of all the orkish backstab testing I've been a part of, it seems like ~260 is the soft cap.

In the above comment about health absorb, do you mean, for example, if stabbed in the foot wearing fine metal boots, they would absorb 13 damage from the backstab? Makes sense.


2020/09/30 15:11, Rísneth: 
Yes, that's the absorb I meant. Smrtak once got stabbed in demons for 50 damage, because he was stabbed to head with Dragonhelm, hehe. And he ate stab on wounded! Talk about luck!

2020/09/30 16:35, Draz:   
LOL that's incredible, I never even thought about stab hitting armour locations.

2020/10/02 13:52, Draz:  edited 1x   
Ok I'm very much understanding the value of bash now, it's getting me lots of kills. I would go as far as to say my style is very bash dependent now (for enemies, not doors).

81% bash has seemed great (regularly out-bashing warriors) but it cost me like 10+ pracs for the last 5% and I'm very prac starved. Is anyone able to quantify what I'm getting in terms of whiffs / speed for that last 5-10% in bash?

2020/10/03 15:59, Draz:  edited 1x   
Yeah so at 81% bash I believe I missed multiple bashes on a high level warrior on aggro.

So as Vaelrin said, bash success vs. characters must depend on:
-OB
-Level disparity
-Bash %

I've noticed in general a pretty big difference in bashes with lower ob. But I still haven't been able to glean the difference in 71% bash vs. 81% bash and if it's worth the amount of pracs you need to dump to make it happen.

It also seemed easier to bash with spears than daggers but hard to tell if it's the 3% ob or potentially the reach of the weapon or something.

2020/10/03 16:03, Elestir:   
Maybe it's bash % multiplied by your warrior level (much like it is for spells). And with all those pracs in pierce, your warrior level is somewhat lower than when they are spent in stabbing.

2020/10/09 03:47, Draz:  edited 3x   
That seems correct based on some additional testing. 71% bash + 104% stab (higher thief level). Toppled some not too hard PK bashes from what I could tell.

71% bash + 101% stab seemed to work fine. So if you're level 30 like me you're probably looking at 76% bash at least depending on your warrior level (81% is VERY expensive in pracs though so it will bring your warrior level up, probably cheaper to get some extra endurance).

2020/10/10 21:55, Praska:   
still i think thats kinda odd that you bashed my warscout with 140 def.
I usually have problems to bash scouts with my warriors who have 95%+ bash and more ob that scout will ever have. That said i think bash screwed or solo warriors are pointless :D
Yzur is test so to say, i love play that char but its far from stats that Snakr or others suggested.

2020/10/10 22:50, Draz:   
Don't think that was me, was it just one bash? You can always get lucky with bash. Also, Dex is a stat that affects bash so scouts don't inherently have bad bash. There's some warrior leaning scouts running around (95% stab) who would bash better than warriors.

Also, from what I've seen level disparity plays a huge role. At level 30ish I could bash level 26 warriors on wimpy but failed a bash on level 50+ warrior on aggro.

2020/10/13 19:25, Draz:  edited 1x   
Interesting thing I learned with pracs, seems dodge practice breakpoints (where you get +1% dodge) are at the 10+ 5% intervals (15%, 55%, etc.) unlike most prac breakpoints being at the 1% intervals.

2020/10/13 20:55, Draz:   
Does anyone know what it would take to get an orc scout to not fail sneaks when someone walks in your room? I know with sneak / stat bonuses hobbits + elves can do this sometimes.

Would a 109% backstab max dex / per orc scout with low weight (<50 lbs) have a shot at this?

2020/10/14 17:28, Elestir:   
@Draz You can achieve that with hide, but without hide I believe only hobbits and elves can do that, due to racial bonuses, and even those only against low PER/awareness enemies.

Mobs entering room never notice you immediately though, which is one of the inconsistencies of MUME in handling mobs and players.

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