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2004/07/27 17:47, Kazram: 
also, it is selfish to say that you only live for yourself. it is nonsense, everyone lives for lots of people. people who depend on you, people who would miss you. by quitting life you are basically transferring your own pain onto others. on the people that are closest to you.

But when you're in the pits of depression, you don't think anyone would miss you, you don't think anyone would feel any pain at your death because as far as you're concerned your life is completely and utterly worthless.

2004/07/27 17:58, Celebsil: 
Well, in my (and Belog's) country it is possible to put someone under guardianship if he is a threat for his own life. I don't know if it is a solution for someone suffering from such severe depressions to force medical treatment (those pills people turn to zombies), as in most cases depressions can be treated only if the ill person changes their depressive way of thinking. There are depressions where the problems are caused by neurochemical disbalances. These can be treated with pills.) And there are depressions where problems cause neurochemical disbalances. This type is more common. It can be healed if the ill person gets the insight that it is ill and needs to get over their problems. The ill person needs the insight to seek or accept the required help (that can be family or friends support or therapy or a combination of them). For this type of depressions pills are only a crutch, and modern pills don't necessary turn the depressive person in a mindless zombie).

2004/07/27 18:05, Kazram: 
Vaire: Here in the UK, someone suffering from severe mental illness and is believed to be a threat to themselves or others can be sectioned under the mental health act. Which effectively results in them being taken into hospital and certain treatments can be given without the patients consent.

2004/07/27 18:17, Stavin: 
What Vaire says is true, sometimes there's just no fixing a problem, somtimes there's nothing that can be done to help. And sometimes a person just can't take anymore. There just isn't always a good solution for everything in life. You try as best you can to find one, and you try to hope, but sometimes things just don't work out. Every person has their limit, every person has a point where they just can't take anymore, it's not fair to judge someone else by your own abilities. What one person might shrug off might destroy another, and vice versa.

Gefe, I understand your point about how suicide hurts the ones left behind. I think anyone who is going to commit suicide needs to be very aware just how traumatic such a thing will be for everyone else, and do their best to minimize that trauma. But you can't demand someone continue to live a life of misery just to keep the people around them happy.

At some point you have to respect the rights of others to make their own decisions, even when you don't agree with those decisions. It's hard to do, very hard, but ask yourself: wouldn't you want others to respect -your- decisions?

2004/07/27 18:54, Vaire: 
Kazram, Here in the US you can petition the courts too, however it's VERY difficult to ever get someone committed for their own mental health. Trust me i've tried.

Well said Stavin.

2004/07/27 19:11, Hiharin: 
Vaire, if someone makes specific threats about suicide or 'ending it all' or any other suggestive comments taken as a totality the police and EMS can involuntarily commit a person. I have done this hundreds of times as a police officer back in the States. In actuality, an emergency committal is only temporary and to make it long-term you do have to have a court order, but in S.C. all it takes to get a probate judge to sign the order is a psychiatrist testifying that the person as a danger to themselves. I am not sure what kind of situation you were having trouble with, but if you had a friend or loved one who was threatening suicide and there was trouble getting them committed, then somebody fumbled the ball. It is almost scary how easy it is to involuntarily commit someone in the U.S.

2004/07/27 19:13, Nacs: 
I am sure i know how u feel, i lost my friend (he drowned) about a month ago and my mother died last friday. So comf etc. I am just trying to be with my friends and family alot, it helps some so i also advice it for u .

2004/07/27 19:17, Vaire: 
Hiharin, and they release the person 24 hours later. do you follow up on these things? Because they never kept my mother longer that 24 hours ever. Not when I tried nor 2 of her husbands.

2004/07/27 19:32, Kazram: 
Vaire: In the UK the courts aren't involved in sectioning under the mental health act, unless the patient has committed a crime. In order for someone to be sectioned you need 2 doctors (normally the family GP and a psychiatrist) to agree that the person needs to be in hospital and a social worker to make the application to (I think) the hospital. In exceptional cases then only 1 doctors opinion is needed (although another doctors opinion must be obtained within 72 hours).

2004/07/27 19:39, Vaire: 
Kazram what do you do if you can't compel the person to go to the doctor? In the case of a legal adult (over 18) who has definate mental problems and is a danger to themselves but is still a functional member of society. How many intelligent yet dangerous people do you know that can't manage to avoid a doctor? Suicidal people aren't easily identified. I'm just saying it's very difficult to get help for a person that is dead set against it, and those are usually the people that need the help the most.

2004/07/27 19:49, Celebsil: 
Under German Law you need a judges decision within the next work day if the person should stay in custody for longer than 24 hours, and the judge has to visit the ill person and try to speak with it. After that decision a psyciatric evidence is made to prepare the jugdes final decision

2004/07/27 20:21, Kazram: 
Vaire: In the UK, if you can't get the person to see a doctor, then that's when the courts will become involved usually by issuing a warrant for the police to enter premises and take the person to a place of safety where they can be assessed. The police also have powers to take anyone from a public place to a place of safety where they can be assessed, if they have reason to believe that the person is a danger to themselves or others.

The persons nearest relative can also be the one that makes the application that I mentioned the social worker making above.

Also there are no legal means to prevent detention, if the papers are completed properly then the detention is lawful. You can appeal the decision after you've been detained but not before.

2004/07/27 20:29, Vaire: 
Sounds like the UK has a better system.

2004/07/28 19:13, Kelen: 
It doesnt matter how good a 'system' is in place, if a person dosent want help they can oftern make those around them think that everything is ok and that they are 'just a bit down' etc.

Yes in the UK if someone is a danger to themselves and to others then they can be taken away, but the two people I know that have taken their own lives have been 'down but mostly fine' until they day they died!

Yes some people seek out help, some have help sought out for them, but some slip through all the nets and cant or dont want to be helped and some of these will end up killing themselves.

When I suffered from depression all the pills that I took just made me loopy as well as depressed and it was only when after my life got better (pretty much on its own) that I was able to look back and see how close to the edge I had been, and at that point I was able to get help and get 'cured' but up until that point I had thought all the crazy stuff happening in my head was normal, and so convinced all those around me that everything was fine.

I hope that made a bit of sence and wasnt all ramble :)

2004/07/28 20:20, Stavin: 
One of the big problems in treating mental illness at this time is that there are no diagnostic tests to back up the findings of the doctor. For instance, if a doctor interviews a patient and decides based on that interview that the pateint has a type of schizophrenia, the doctor might prescribe a medication that inhibits in some way the dopamine pathways in the patient's brain. This is based on the current theory that psychotic symptoms in schizophrenics are caused by overactive dopamine pathways.

The problem is, our current state of diagnostic technology provides no test the doctor can run to actually determine whether the person has excessive dopamine activity (or if they do, just where among the many dopamine-using pathways the excess exists). So if the person doesn't have an excess, they are now taking a medication that -causes- an inbalance in their brain along with whatever problem they had that made them seek treatment in the first place.

I had a neighbor that got bounced around for years between anti-psychotics and lithium (or both) because the doctors simply couldn't figure out what was wrong with him (was he manic with psychotic symptoms or a psychotic with a strong tendency to act out?). He is still very poorly treated to this day, not because noone cares but because the state of the art in mental health care isn't enough to deal with whatever is plaguing him.

This is why so many people who seek treatment for mental illness actually end up in worse shape. If the doctor misdiagnoses, or if the diagnosis is right but the medication mistargets (this can happen a lot with anti-psychotics), or if the medicine is simply given in too high (or too low) a dose, the person can end up helped very little or even made much, much worse.

Treatment of mental illness is still in a very infant stage. That doesn't mean it can't help, it can. Many people have found relief from terrible afflictions through the use of drugs and therapy. But many times our current state of knowledge just isn't enough to help the person.

2004/07/28 21:45, Hiharin: 
Vaire, the police do not follow up after an involuntary committal due to the fact that threats of suicide are not a criminal matter. However, the 24 hour period you are speaking of has two purposes. The first is that it is a 'cooling off' period. This usually helps in the case of the folks who threaten suicide a couple times a week but never intend to carry out the threat. The second purpose of the 24 hour period is that it gives you time to secure a more lasting committal through probate court. In S.C. we have Mobile Crisis, a group that responds to all kinds of mental-health related issues. They actually carry a wireless fax with them so that when they make an on-site assessment and determine that the threat is serious, they can get an immediate committal order from a judge. This is the committal that requires a release from a mental health official (usually an M.D. or a shrink) for the person in question to walk free. I am sure Tennessee has something like this. In terms of follow-up I usually advise the family or friends of the victim about the Mobile Crisis option, and lots of times I call them myself, anyway. Like I said, if you weren't advised about your options for a more lasting committal then somebody dropped the ball.

The 24 hour period has one more function. As a cop or as an EMS worker, I can have someone committed just by taking them to the nearest hospital and articulating to the ER staff that the person has threatened suicide. Although I do not know of anyone in my profession who would abuse this, the general public is not so trusting. The 24 hours is meant to give a qualified mental health professional enough time to determine if the patient is, in fact suicidal, and it protects you from an egregious incarceration by someone with malicious intent towards you. Someone who truly has suicidal issues will, 99% of the time, be held for a much longer than 24 hour period if the right people get involved.

2004/07/28 23:45, Hawa: 
I think perhaps some of you have kinda lost the point of this thread. He didn't start this thread as a debate on whether suicide was right or wrong, nor to debate about whether suicidal thoughts can be treated. He started it to find out how to deal with the feelings caused by the suicide of a friend, so I think to discuss it in such a cold manner in terms of facts, figures, drugs, policies, etc is a bit of an insult to people who have had to deal with someone close to them committing suicide or being depressed/suicidal.

2004/07/29 13:32, Gefe: 
discussions evolve. live with it.

2004/07/29 19:18, Fieldy:   
Seade : how old was that friend of yours ?

2004/07/30 04:22, Vaire: 
Hawa, I think in order to deal with anything open discussion helps. It helps to also know what one can and cannot do to prevent this in other cases, and whether you should or should not do anything.
Most times when something is on a person's mind you run 'whatifs' what if i had done this or that, what should i have done, could i have done, what would I do if i'm ever in this situation again, that's what this thread evolved into.
I'm glad of the information posted here as even I have learned some things I was not aware of.

2004/07/30 20:24, Urogh:   
I really feel sorry for all of you who have lost someone close.
I believe that medication and psychiathrical consultation can help those who ADMIT they have trouble but what about those who tell nothing about their problems and then out of the blue sky commit suicide?
BTW. Life is more than women, work, money, boredom etc. If someone is down, he/she can be REALLY down even if he/she has all of those mentioned above.

2004/07/30 21:32, Gefe: 
actually, general 'happiness' (the feeling) is not simply the sum of 'women, work, money, excitement'. (this has been shown in several studies). and since depression is the opposite of happiness (one is disgusted with one's life), having all those things does not mean one cant be depressed.

2004/07/30 22:40, Loud: 
I beleive that many suicides could be avoided with prober treatment. The right combination of therapy and drugs will do the trick for most people, its no easy cure though! And certainly not an option for everyone.

However life is tough. I once talked to an old guy who had worked most of his life as a family doctor in northern Norway. He said that the most insidious medical problem was ... love. That stuff really kills people, not that love was a bad thing, but its a hard concept to get a good angle at. So is life.

Bruenor wrote above ' With time these feelings also passed, bringing on a sense of understanding and a strong feeling that everyone ultimately have only responsibility for their own lives.'

This reminded me of a book I once read, I think it was by Camus. He wrote, that the only real decision man should take, was whether to kill yourself or not. If you choose to live, you should honor that choice and commit yourself to life. We have a choice to make. We can either do or die.

I have a good friend who once in a while in a drunken stupor admits to having suicide thoughts. He has a dark side to his mind and I dont beleive any amount of therapy or medication will take that away. Either he will continue to live with that dark side or he will die. My plan is to be as good a friend as I can be, and should he choose to blow his brain out - I will let him be an example that life really IS tough and remember that when Im whining and complaining and making excuses for myself, instead of comitting to life.

Hope this made sense - Good luck Seade

2004/08/08 01:22, Fone: 
Found a nice article on depression in Norwegian: [submitted link]

I think about everyone who understands the language should read it, it gives some really usefull guidelines for how to threat your *cough* depressed friends.

2004/12/30 13:13, Seade:   
not a year has passed by and i have to bury another friend. first friend killed himself on the 3'd of january this year and he was 20. so now another friend died on the 20'th december he was 25. he had a blood thing in he's lungs that kept the air out of brain. this is sooo fucked i bury more friend than i gain. i'm only 22 FFS.
fuck fuck fuckgknipkfsagboflsa'gbfpsa'g

2004/12/30 14:18, Marre: 
Comf :( Tattoo their names on your arms with R.I.P. after, thats what i would do.

2004/12/30 14:42, Siande: 
2004 haven't been a good year for me either, in the end of may my cousin kill her self, and i could not go to the funeral because of exams *sniff*
Then i take a year at a school in Sogndal, to calm down, but mostly to have fun(classes: outdoor life, climbing, glaciers and such) living with six other girls. life was nice and fun, but one morning we find the girl living in the only single room in the apartment, and she is murdered *cry*. the worst thing is that she asked me if i could go with her on a consert that night, but i was tired, and my astronomy class should up 0300 am to watch the moon go into the earth-shadow (it was lovely to see, bright red moon). now we know that the man who killed her met her on the consert and followed her home, and murdered her, on the room at the other side of the corridor, 1 meter away from the unlocked door to my room *shiver* (and now he has fleed the contry and they can't find him.) and the police said it must have happened right after i walked out to look at the moon with my class. what would he have done if i met him? what if i had gone with her to the consert, maybe none of this would have happened...

2004/12/30 23:39, Seade:   
aaahh jesus!!!!!!!!!! Siande! thats horrible.
i feel for everyone who has lost someone dear to her/him.
this xmas was the worst of all... wh usually i'm lonely .. i can handle that. other .. fsdafasdfdsgdhjfhjoipfjdgfhn'fdnh'MbvcBMvxcbnfdst0rewu
i just can't understand... when the fuck is my time.. i DO NOT wan'
t to be the last man standing!!! FUCK OFF
i have just quit smokeing, managed about for 3 months now i'm thinking what the fuck for?? everyone dies.. sooner or later.. so why the fuck worry?? i'm gona do all that illegal shit that is out there!

2004/12/30 23:52, Conspiracy:   
Humm.. well I dont know. Basicly you scared the shit out of me now with your (true) stories. I am sorry too. Life is fragile, thats for sure.

2004/12/31 00:01, Seade:   
not (true) but TRUE storise...
song on my winamp - dry your eyes mate
- under the bridge
- this used to be my playground
- I will alway love you

and all other songs that i simply cannot name!

2004/12/31 00:03, Seade:   
there are no words that to speak :(

2004/12/31 00:09, Conspiracy:   
Whatever Seade is trying to say, i agree.

2004/12/31 00:14, Guido: 
song on my winamp - dry your eyes mate

The Streets?

2004/12/31 00:17, Conspiracy:   
Yeah, the Street, smashing album also.

Under the bridge is a personal favorite. rawks iron buttchecks.

2005/01/02 10:32, Seade:   
so this year started with me getting into the biggest fight with a girl i've been in love for over 5 years. well.. you have to know the all story but still... long story short:i think she's the one,we are great together but yet she has another man to go to and that pisses me off. and now she went to a bar wich isn't located at out hometown but some east and usually some gangster dudes go there with sluts (hounestly true) and i told her not to go but she did... and i told some ugly shit right to her face. what a good guy i am eh? now she won't accept my calls nor nothing. luv kills!
and i have some thoughts :( ...

2005/01/02 10:51, Seade:   
bah.. i feel like shit

2005/01/02 10:51, Fieldy:   
Fcuk off Seade! You are not gonna do some stupid things before me ! This is the life as it is, suiciding is for the weak ones and you're not one of them. I know you can say that you're so sick of it but common this shit happens just try to stay calm.
The last person I knew and killed himself was in june and before that 2 of my uncles died aswell, one was killed, other did a suicide. Yeah it really sucks to lose someone special, the thing with you gf get -over it. Like one girl whom I know said ' I dump every boy who will cheat on me, cuz that means that he wants something other, something better, not me! and I can't handle the thought' So it's time to get your thoughts together. And don't think out some stupid shit !

2005/01/02 10:56, Seade:   
i don't think i got the nerv to actually do smthn but sure as hell feels like it. yeah i'm kinda off track and i need someone... but but ... i'm confused :( and on 4'th jan. i'm going to leave home and go to norway again.. so all is gona be left behind!
and i drink too much

2005/01/02 10:57, Seade:   
what i need is a bitchslap and few bottles of pure .ee vodka!

2005/01/02 10:58, Fieldy:   
*HICK* yeah drinking is fun ;) but not too much cuz the health may suffer :S Well atleast you can say that you have some time to get your thoughts straights. Btw what job you have in Norway ?

2005/01/02 11:01, Seade:   
haha you want a job too ? ;)
i build stuff and make stuff look new or smthn.

2005/01/02 11:03, Fieldy:   
Hmm heheh no I don't want a job :P I wanna finish school first then I can start thinking about it. Btw vodka sucks, try whiskey ?

2005/01/02 11:50, Seade:   
i'm in a need of communicateing.
btw got contact with da girl. :D
i'm such a over reacter :P
and whisey aint that good. if anything then brandy and ofcourse Vana Tallinn :P my favorite

2005/01/02 11:55, Fieldy:   
Have you tried whiskey with coca-cola ? it's really good =)

2018/10/19 23:32, Seade:   
After 13 years. Life still sucks. And more friends have passed... and i'm still f**in' here!!!

2018/10/21 06:49, Eldaril: 
Most notably, Stavin isn't here anymore.

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